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Old 04-22-2017, 12:42 PM   #41
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i do what's known as "pass shooting' when it comes to hitting with a shotgun, i believe i'll pass- there's better instruments for killing zombies and crowd control-
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Old 04-22-2017, 01:07 PM   #42
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That "Crack" is most certainly not a crack, it is a casting mark. The discoloration of the receiver appears to be from grease. Clean the entire receiver with alcohol and see if it's still discolored. Either that or give the whole receiver a rub down with oil.
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Old 04-22-2017, 01:10 PM   #43
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Not sure what you hope to accomplish patterning wise with this gun, but regardless of what anyone tells you, pattern is addressed with choke, not with forcing cone and backboring. As for choke, shotguns tend to rapidly lose effectiveness on human targets beyond 25 yards. At 25 yards the spread really isn't that much, and chances are all pellets are hitting the target, so a tighter choke isn't going to increase effectiveness.
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Old 04-22-2017, 02:06 PM   #44
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let's face it a LOT of people- including leo's are enamoured with the shotgun- I remember on one of our training courses, the instructor put a heavy leather jacket up at 50 yards and let go- it was still as good as the day it was bought- I have only the one riot/trench gun and it's a Winchester 1300 defender- I don't think I've put a dozen rounds through it- i'd rather eliminate a "problem " at 50 or better yards than have to deal with it at 25
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Old 04-25-2017, 05:14 PM   #45
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let's face it a LOT of people- including leo's are enamoured with the shotgun- I remember on one of our training courses, the instructor put a heavy leather jacket up at 50 yards and let go- it was still as good as the day it was bought- I have only the one riot/trench gun and it's a Winchester 1300 defender- I don't think I've put a dozen rounds through it- i'd rather eliminate a "problem " at 50 or better yards than have to deal with it at 25
Your tossing a military solution toward a civilian ROE situation t-star! I'd rather positively prefer to eliminate a problem at 800 meters than deal with it"s insignificance at 400 meters. But when the only firearm you are issued is a scatter-gun, perhaps it's time to make due with the one you brought to the dance? We can all have our preferences, but how is it that you would improve upon what brought you to the "Big Dance"? I mean, this is the shotgun section of the forum. (Did I really just stand up for 590A1?) Perhaps I wasn't able to comprehend what I read? Or, did I understand that we are discussing scatter-gun technology here?
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Old 04-25-2017, 06:30 PM   #46
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And where the Hell do you get a 400 meter plus shot in the usual urban environment most of us might face? Many will have a 20 foot, down the hall shot at 2 dark thirty, not a SF engagement.

Last edited by csmkersh; 04-25-2017 at 06:47 PM.
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Old 04-25-2017, 11:52 PM   #47
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That "Crack" is most certainly not a crack, it is a casting mark. The discoloration of the receiver appears to be from grease. Clean the entire receiver with alcohol and see if it's still discolored. Either that or give the whole receiver a rub down with oil.
Yeah I know I checked it doesn't go all the way through. Already did that discoloration did not leave.

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Old 04-25-2017, 11:53 PM   #48
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Not sure what you hope to accomplish patterning wise with this gun, but regardless of what anyone tells you, pattern is addressed with choke, not with forcing cone and backboring. As for choke, shotguns tend to rapidly lose effectiveness on human targets beyond 25 yards. At 25 yards the spread really isn't that much, and chances are all pellets are hitting the target, so a tighter choke isn't going to increase effectiveness.
It has the accuchoke system. I've got an improved cylinder choke installed at present.

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Old 04-25-2017, 11:54 PM   #49
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let's face it a LOT of people- including leo's are enamoured with the shotgun- I remember on one of our training courses, the instructor put a heavy leather jacket up at 50 yards and let go- it was still as good as the day it was bought- I have only the one riot/trench gun and it's a Winchester 1300 defender- I don't think I've put a dozen rounds through it- i'd rather eliminate a "problem " at 50 or better yards than have to deal with it at 25
This has what to do with the title of this thread?

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Old 04-25-2017, 11:54 PM   #50
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And where the Hell do you get a 400 meter plus shot in the usual urban environment most of us might face? Many will have a 20 foot, down the hall shot at 2 dark thirty, not a SF engagement.
Yup

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Old 04-26-2017, 02:36 PM   #51
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And where the Hell do you get a 400 meter plus shot in the usual urban environment most of us might face? Many will have a 20 foot, down the hall shot at 2 dark thirty, not a SF engagement.
The point was that this is the shotgun section.

With that said, I get dragged down to the MALL occasionally. (Wife,3 Daughters, Grand-Daughter) Bad things have been happening even in the little Block long strip malls. (1/8 of a mile) Not to mention that the Large Malls have become a haven for "Want to be Gangsters". So while many only concern themselves with the hallway outside the bedroom, bad things also happen when you are least expecting them out in town.

A well equipped shotgun loaded with a 12 gauge slug, stands a far better chance of dropping a "Bad Guy" at the end of the strip mall, than even my "Old 45" . YMMV.
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Old 04-26-2017, 02:39 PM   #52
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How often do you take a well-equipped shotgun to the mall with you?
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Old 04-26-2017, 03:37 PM   #53
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How often do you take a well-equipped shotgun to the mall with you?
ED.

Grand Marquis LSE (upgraded POS Cruiser) in Florigun! Drop the slugs in the glove box, and the 590A1 in the cargo net of the trunk (boot for those of Queens England) Standard procedure.

Last edited by M118LR; 04-27-2017 at 07:22 AM. Reason: shorter is better.
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Old 04-26-2017, 08:28 PM   #54
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A well equipped shotgun loaded with a 12 gauge slug, stands a far better chance of dropping a "Bad Guy" at the end of the strip mall, than even my "Old 45" . YMMV.
For most that may be true. But I have actually missed a man sized target at 100 yards with a foster type slug; a shot I can easily make with a handgun. But beyond 25 yards you're correct in that most would be better armed with the shotgun when ranges get extended. The effectiveness of buckshot takes a big nosedive beyond 25 yards, but the lowly slug carries a HUGE wallop at most any range if you're able to connect with it.

For many LE agencies, the shotgun is the only choice one gets beyond a handgun. And if I knew trouble was coming, that shotgun would come out lickety-split! Inside 25 yards its the most deadly thing a person can put in his hands.

And the Mossberg 590 (or any of the 500 series) is an excellent combat shotgun. It's much better than the Remington due to the fact that it isn't prone to the short stroking issue the 870 is prone to.

The 500 series Mossberg is a copy/update of the magnificent Remington model 31. Basically they took the design of the Rem 31 and made it a swap barrel shotgun. In doing so, making the bolt lock into the barrel extension made it so the gun can have an aluminum receiver. This lightened the gun and made it generally more versatile. It also killed off what made the Remington 31 a magnificent hunting arm, but it made the Mossberg one of the biggest sales success stories in shotgunning history.

Many used to think of the Mossberg as the "cheap" combat shotgun. But when the 590 won the US Marines contract, suddenly people stood up and started paying attention. That "cheap" shotgun wasn't pretty, the action was anything but smooth...but it was absolutely reliable and relatively robust. The "cheap" gun first out-performed all of the "first rate" competition, and then WAY under-bid everyone.

I'm not big on shotguns as combat arms; I tend to think of them as very specialized weapons. But there are times when they're absolutely THE right tool for the job. For combat, I personally prefer the 20ga as 12ga is really over-powered for most combat related tasks. I'll never really understand why the 12ga became THE combat shotgun cartridge; makes no sense to me.

For combat shotguns, shot pattern really isn't a factor. At practical ranges, most any shotgun will put all the buckshot pellets on target, and there's absolutely zero velocity advantage to the 12 bore. The 12 just offers a few more pellets where they're really not needed. Anyone hit squarely hit with a 12 or 20 bore using buckshot inside of 25 yards would never know the difference. There's no meaningful difference with slugs.

The 20 offers a lighter gun, lighter recoil, and lighter ammunition to carry. For a combat shotgun to my way of thinking the 20bore is just plain superior in every way.

But it seems NO ONE agrees with me, so there are very few truly combat ready 20 bore guns. My personal "defensive" shotgun really isn't a defensive gun at all. It's a 26" mod choked Remingtion model 11 20 bore. It's a game gun for my wife and the kids that can double for defense if needed.

Personally if I were building a pure defensive shotgun I would choose a 12bore because there's just much better support for the 12 bore than the 20.

I would pick up a Winchester 1897 takedown model, cut it to 18.25" and modify it for using Aguilla's little 1 3/4" "Mini Shot" shells. These allow for 11 rounds in the magazine, each shell delivering 11 pellets at 1,200fps and a markedly lower recoil impulse making it a VERY fast shooting shotgun indeed.

In today's age of semi-auto shotguns, or assault rifle pattern combat shotguns, the pump gun is seeming a bit archaic. But personally, I think a pump gun is still a VERY effective combat arm. Yeah it takes a little more effort to become really proficient, just like a DA auto requires just a little more trigger time. But with practice the pump action shotgun can be REALLY fast, and a well designed pump gun like the 590 are as reliable as a claw hammer.

When outfitted with an interchangable choke barrel, it can become a very versatile survival gun (however gun and especially ammunition make 12ga shotguns less than idea in the survivable run role).

I have tested fully rifled barreled against barrels with just rifled chokes and the accuracy difference between the two is so small as to not be worth your mentioning it. The 590 can bag birds in flight even though the very shot barrel is FAR from ideal. But it can ground shoot with the best of them. The short overall length makes for a downright decent turkey gun. The 590 can be a decent big game gun for game such as deer, bear, elk etc. Of course, rather short range, but a good shooter can make 150 yard shots all day long, and anything hit squarely with a 12ga slug is dinner served. The Mossberg 500 offers a replacement barrel to turn it into a modern inline muzzle loader. I think you'd have to change out the magazine tube to be able to fit that barrel to the 590, but if you did, the one 500 inline muzzle loader I tested shot 1.25" groups all day long making it a legitimate 200 yard "rifle" for most intermediate sized big game.

So it's really a great gun.
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Old 04-28-2017, 04:46 PM   #55
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T-star, et. al.,

I'm one of those "shotgun fanatics", who spent a LONG time "pinned to a badge" & my CHOICE, if I have a choice in a shoot-out is a Model 37 Ithaca pump with a long magazine loaded with #1 Buck.
(When I was still active as a LEO, I stopped a LOT of "problems" without bloodshed by "getting out" of the 4WD with my shotgun. in hand = MOST thugs have an inkling of what a riot-gun will do out to 50-60M & would prefer NOT to take a trip to the ER or the morgue..)

I carried a shotgun so much in the MPs, that I was often teased about being "Shotgun Slade". - Nonetheless, the BEST gun-fight is one where NOBODY got wounded/killed
& the Alpha Hotel ends up in irons/custody.

NOTE: In my years as a county stock detective, I also kept a loaded Garand & a Mills Belt full of clips in the truck, for "long distance events". = NEVER had to shoot anyone with the Garand, though.

just my OPINIONS, sw

Last edited by stand watie; 04-28-2017 at 04:57 PM. Reason: add
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Old 04-29-2017, 05:07 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by GunGeek View Post
The 20 offers a lighter gun, lighter recoil, and lighter ammunition to carry. For a combat shotgun to my way of thinking the 20bore is just plain superior in every way.

But it seems NO ONE agrees with me, so there are very few truly combat ready 20 bore guns.
I've got two 12s for rough work which, thankfully, I'm not likely to get into anymore. One's a 12 Mossy 500 ATP and the other is a Savage M28. My favorite is a Mossy 500C 20 with an 18" barrel. And as noted already, inside 25 yards the fellow on the receiving end won't notice the difference.
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Old 04-29-2017, 01:32 PM   #57
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T-star, et. al.,

I'm one of those "shotgun fanatics", who spent a LONG time "pinned to a badge" & my CHOICE, if I have a choice in a shoot-out is a Model 37 Ithaca pump with a long magazine loaded with #1 Buck.
(When I was still active as a LEO, I stopped a LOT of "problems" without bloodshed by "getting out" of the 4WD with my shotgun. in hand = MOST thugs have an inkling of what a riot-gun will do out to 50-60M & would prefer NOT to take a trip to the ER or the morgue..)

I carried a shotgun so much in the MPs, that I was often teased about being "Shotgun Slade". - Nonetheless, the BEST gun-fight is one where NOBODY got wounded/killed
& the Alpha Hotel ends up in irons/custody.

NOTE: In my years as a county stock detective, I also kept a loaded Garand & a Mills Belt full of clips in the truck, for "long distance events". = NEVER had to shoot anyone with the Garand, though.

just my OPINIONS, sw
The Ithaca 37 Riot was one of the greatest combat shotguns ever made. They go for big bucks these day when/if you ever find one. I'd love to have one.
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Old 04-29-2017, 06:38 PM   #58
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Boy, I was really quite enamored of my 870 until reading this.

Now it looks like I have to have a Mossy...
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Old 04-29-2017, 06:58 PM   #59
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The Ithaca 37 Riot was one of the greatest combat shotguns ever made. They go for big bucks these day when/if you ever find one. I'd love to have one.
Ithaca 37 ... IIRC it was itself a copy of the Remington model 17. J. M. Browning's last pump shotgun design. I have one of those 17s in 20 gauge .... with a Cutt's Compensator on it and two screw-in chokes.
It belonged to my father. I don't use it nowdays as I usually prefer 12 gauge (I do have a 20g. Rem. 870 that is 1980s vintage) and the old 17 is ... well, let's say maybe it's a tad "long in the teeth." It is an interesting design.
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Old 04-30-2017, 11:18 PM   #60
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Boy, I was really quite enamored of my 870 until reading this.

Now it looks like I have to have a Mossy...
Oh man, I'm sorry if I did something to hurt your love affair. The 870 is a great shotgun in the field. "Fit" is always a bid deal with shotguns and the 870 and 1100 have something a bit magical about them when it comes to fit...the seem to "fit" most people very well. And then there's that intangible "feel" of a shotgun, and the 870 just has that in spades...they balance well, shoulder well, point well...they just FEEL very good in your hands; and that inspires confidence. But if you short stroke an 870 it really will bind that gun up but good. There is a "fix" for it that involves a flexible "tab" on the shell riser. When it binds, (IIRC) you just yank the forend hard, cycle the action and it will dump the round out of the chamber, and the bound up round, so you have to quickly cycle the action once more to get it fully back into action.

Now I don't have much experience with that "fix" so I'd recommend a bit of research. My first combat shotgun was a very nice Parkerized 870 with a mag extension and I loved that gun...until I ran into that issue for the second time. That's when I recalled that Mr. Murphy has a full time job just following me around, and he would make damned sure that if I were ever in a firefight with an 870 that he would make me short stroke that thing on the first round.

So I sold it, picked up a well used 26" JC Higgins Model 20 (Sears brand, it was the High Standard Flight King), which was a brilliant copy of the Remington model 31, and High Standard actually made the action even smoother than Remington did...absolute smoothest pump action shotgun I've ever seen in my life. Point the barrel north, hit the slide release and that action will just all open. Tilt it south just a tad and it would close right up. It's as if the action as mounted on greased up banana peel bearings. I lost the +2 in the magazine, but I gained speed and surefire reliability. I later upgraded to an Ithaca 37 Riot gun with a 20" barrel and 7+1 magazine...and I've regretted selling it every day since.

The Mossberg 500 series are VERY reliable but they really lack the "feel" of an 870 by a good margin. And when it comes to smooth pump actions...well, let's just say Mossberg kinda skipped that day in design school. The 500 series are not very smooth at all, but you can compensate for that by making YOU smoother through practice.
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