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Old 10-28-2018, 07:46 PM   #21
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csmkersh,

Fwiw, the ONLY scoped weapon that I ever had access to, that was property of the US Army, was the "commercial buy" Model 700ADL rifles in 7.62NATO, with 6X scope, that our Mike Papa "Selected Marksmen" use for possible hostage rescue opns.
(MPs do NOT call those folks "snipers" for PR/DoD policy reasons, but those people are the BEST shots that I've ever known. = I've seen them routinely hit a US Quarter at 200M.)

yours, sw
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Old 10-29-2018, 06:25 AM   #22
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stand watie, we call them "designated marksman" for the same reasons. They, too, were usually armed with a 700ADL.
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Old 10-29-2018, 07:53 AM   #23
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csmkersh,

Understood.

Since I'm NOT & NEVER was a member of the Hostage Rescue Teams, I can BRAG on their obvious tactical proficiency, professionalism, dedication & expertise.
(When I was assigned as the Rangemaster at one post, I frequently was present when they were practicing their specialized craft.)

On one occasion in VA, I was present when the HRT was called in to deal with an "armed & barricaded subject", who had taken a DW/child hostage. = The HRT ended the problem in less than 15 minutes after they arrived, were briefed on the situation & were ordered to end the problem. = They did so quickly/efficiently, in a very "low key" manner & just as quickly departed the scene, having made "little fuss" in the neighborhood.
(I suspect, but do NOT know, that most people near the scene never knew that "outside experts" had ended the criminal act.)

yours, sw

Last edited by stand watie; 10-29-2018 at 08:04 AM. Reason: clarity/grammar
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Old 10-29-2018, 09:51 AM   #24
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Some years back a neighbors son got off his meds and his Dad feared suicide. SAPD Swat set up in my front yard, as we had a nice shade tree and it was a simmer with 100F plus. Barbara keep them in ice water while they work with the young man. Once again they did their job without firing a shot.
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Old 10-29-2018, 10:00 AM   #25
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csmkersh,

GOOD DEAL.

That said, a suicidal person is a whole different situation than an armed hostage taker. = Sometimes bloodshed is the SOLE viable option.

yours, sw
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Old 10-29-2018, 08:29 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stand watie View Post
csmkersh,

GOOD DEAL.

That said, a suicidal person is a whole different situation than an armed hostage taker. = Sometimes bloodshed is the SOLE viable option.

yours, sw
It's almost instinctual to return fire when your being attacked, it's a totally different animal to break the trigger on command. There is quite an evaluation process that takes place prior to selection of precision small arms training. I believe the Army Training Manual (FM 23-10) has a section covering that? But the last M24 Jockey I rubbed elbows with on the one way range had a designation as a Senior Sniper. I believe that's a bit different designation than "DM"? Perhaps I'm mistaken, Old Sailor & Army Designations. It's easy to misunderstand, and terms (NEC's & MOS's) have changed since way back when.
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Old 10-29-2018, 08:56 PM   #27
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M118LR,

A Mike Papa who is a SELECTED MARKSMAN (We don't have DM & I've not read that FM, btw) is selected for their LIKELY future expertise while still in MP OSUT, as our machinegunners are.
(The Black Hats from the first range day are ALERT for the better shooters & the guys/gals who are obviously entranced with the MG or rifle.)
When such OSUT trainees are discovered, a member of the Weapons Committee "takes them aside" & quietly asks the trainee if they would like to spend some extra range time with a committee member, as an "intern". Then the trainees whose "eyes light up" get ONE on ONE training. = SM & machinegunners are a "special breed apart".

One of my favorite stories was: One HOT afternoon at Ft McClellan, a Major from the post staff came up to me & demanded to know how long that a MP had been packing a M60. I said that I would be surprised if he had not carried the gun all morning. The staff officer said, "You better not be right" & went over to talk to the SM.
A few minutes later, he came back to me & said that the soldier had been carrying his MG all day. He further said that he had asked the SM if he could do anything for him & the machionegunner had asked for MORE AMMO.
(I laughed to myself, after the staffer walked on.)

yours, sw
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Old 10-30-2018, 06:13 AM   #28
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Sniper Selection Criteria

From Army Field Manual 23-10 dated 17 August 1994

1-3. PERSONNEL SELECTION CRITERIA

Candidates for sniper training require careful screening. Commanders must screen the individual's records for potential aptitude as a sniper. The rigorous training program and the increased personal risk in combat require high motivation and the ability to learn a variety of skills. Aspiring snipers must have an excellent personal record.

a. The basic guidelines used to screen sniper candidates are as follows:

(1) Marksmanship. The sniper trainee must be an expert marksman. Repeated annual qualification as expert is necessary. Successful participation in the annual competition-in-arms program and an extensive hunting background also indicate good sniper potential.

(2) Physical condition. The sniper, often employed in extended operations with little sleep, food, or water, must be in outstanding physical condition. Good health means better reflexes, better muscular control, and greater stamina. The self-confidence and control that come from athletics, especially team sports, are definite assets to a sniper trainee.

(3) Vision. Eyesight is the sniper's prime tool. Therefore, a sniper must have 20/20 vision or vision correctable to 20/20. However, wearing glasses could become a liability if glasses are lost or damaged. Color blindness is also considered a liability to the sniper, due to his inability to detect concealed targets that blend in with the natural surroundings.

(4) Smoking. The sniper should not be a smoker or use smokeless tobacco. Smoke or an unsuppressed smoker's cough can betray the sniper's position. Even though a sniper may not smoke or use smokeless tobacco on a mission, his refrainment may cause nervousness and irritation, which lowers his efficiency.

(5) Mental condition. When commanders screen sniper candidates, they should look for traits that indicate the candidate has the right qualities to be a sniper. The commander must determine if the candidate will pull the trigger at the right time and place. Some traits to look for are reliability, initiative, loyalty, discipline, and emotional stability. A psychological evaluation of the candidate can aid the commander in the selection process.

(6) Intelligence. A sniper's duties require a wide variety of skills. He must learn the following:
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ......................................

https://www.globalsecurity.org/milit...-10/index.html

Last edited by csmkersh; 10-30-2018 at 06:14 AM. Reason: add link
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Old 10-30-2018, 06:50 AM   #29
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csmkersh,

THANKS.

yours, sw
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Old 10-30-2018, 04:20 PM   #30
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Thanks CSM, but as an Old Sailor the CNO directed me to take precision small arms training with Uncle Sam's Misguided Children. Now MARINE's could hold secondary MOS's as 8541's, but the Navy didn't recognize or acknowledge such foolishness. It was just another Training Course on the road to qualifications.

But in answer stand watie, in the Navy everyone on the Boat Crew (TEAM) carried at least 1 belt for the SAW.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Designated_marksman

I believe that there is allot of accurate scope utilization & maintenance procedures in that Army Training Manual CSM.

JMHO.

Last edited by M118LR; 10-30-2018 at 05:24 PM. Reason: Add DM WIKI Link.
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Old 10-31-2018, 07:26 PM   #31
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Is it time to talk reticle?
https://gunhub.com/attachment.php?at...1&d=1541041524

The P4F, (pictured above) is one of the better working reticles IMO. But there is a newer reticle that allows a solitary operator even greater on the shoulder performance. The MSR.

https://finnaccuracy.com/pages/msr-r...t-and-features

Now down at the bottom of the Finnaccuracy MSR propaganda is a tutorial video. Instead of spinning the turret knobs, just hold on the spot that corresponds to where the initial round impacts and send another.

Hope I haven't lost anyone, but I'm becoming a convert to the MSR.

By the way: 400 yards on the P4F.
Attached Images
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Old 11-01-2018, 09:39 PM   #32
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Perhaps, this being November, I should equate this to the American Deer?
So a 36 inch Buck that is 5 Mil Dots, is 200 yards distance.
If your shouldering a 150 yard Max 7.62 x 39 mm, "Bambi" walks. Yet if your shouldering a Model 7 .308 Win "Bambi" is within "Point Blank Range", Do you squeeze the trigger? Do you need any hold under? (Vice hold over)?
Perhaps I assume that we all understand the "Point Blank Range" of a 308 Win Cartridge?
I'll readily explain all questions to the best of my abilities.
Your input?
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Old 11-02-2018, 06:17 AM   #33
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If you've sighted your .308 for point blank as 50 yards, common in Texas Hill Country, your still dead on at 100 and an inch low at 150 and 4 inches low at 200 yards. Unless your a terrible shot hold were you wish and you've got meat for the freezer to process.
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Old 11-02-2018, 04:37 PM   #34
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Max Point Blank Range for 180 grain .308 @ 2500 fps is 310 yards with the Zero @ 260 yards. 2.18 inches high @ 50 yards, 4.37 inches high @ 100 yards, 3.82 inches high @ 200 yards, and 4.16 inches low at 300 yards.

Setting your point of impact 2 inches above point of aim at 50 yards would increase the Point Blank Range of your .308 Win well past 200 yards CSM.

At 50 yards a Mil-dot is 1.8 inches, at 100 yards 3.6 inches, at 200 yards 7.2 inches, and at 300 yards 10.8 inches.

Rapid engagement: Hold under 1 Mil-dot at 50 yards, 1 1/4 Mil-dot at 100 yards, 1/2 a Mil-dot at 200 yards, Hold over 1/2 a Mil-dot at 300 yards. Or just hold dead on and your projectile shouldn't vary more than 4.4 inches up or down out to 300 yards. Should be meat in the freezer, I agree completely.

Then again, as a simple Squid Operator I need schooling. (Like a Led Zepplin song: Want a whole Lotta Love. Available on YOUtube. )

Last edited by M118LR; 11-02-2018 at 08:16 PM. Reason: add a tune.
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Old 11-03-2018, 05:22 AM   #35
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Except I don't use 180 grain 7.62 bullets. Did you fail to note I stated, "If you've sighted your .308 for point blank as 50 yards, common in Texas Hill Country...?" I provided the info needed for MY area.
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Old 11-03-2018, 06:32 AM   #36
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Except I don't use 180 grain 7.62 bullets. Did you fail to note I stated, "If you've sighted your .308 for point blank as 50 yards, common in Texas Hill Country...?" I provided the info needed for MY area.
Perhaps I've miscomprehended?
You ZERO @ 50 yards so that projectile rise/fall remains within 4.5 inches out to a Max Point Blank Range of 200 yards.

https://web.archive.org/web/20071208...rm?TermID=3768

I just recommended that if you set your Battle Zero for 260 yards, (2 inches high at 50 yards) your Max Point Blank Range would increase to 300 yards.

But since a 50 yard Zero works well in your area, it's probably not going to matter. But it would make a difference when shooting over 200 yards while using a duplex reticle that can't accurately correct for Hold Over/Under.
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Old 11-03-2018, 07:58 AM   #37
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Perhaps I've miscomprehended?
You ZERO @ 50 yards so that projectile rise/fall remains within 4.5 inches out to a Max Point Blank Range of 200 yards.

https://web.archive.org/web/20071208...rm?TermID=3768

I just recommended that if you set your Battle Zero for 260 yards, (2 inches high at 50 yards) your Max Point Blank Range would increase to 300 yards.
You miscomprehended and misstated your original premise.

Yes, I set my recommended point blank at 50 and a zero rise/fall at 100 and a max fall of 4 inches at 200. Normal HUNTING ranges as YOU SPECIFIED in the original post, not battle field.

My battle rifle, a Bushmaster with a Aimpoint red dot combined with Knight fold down peep gives a easy 300 yard gun.

Last edited by csmkersh; 11-03-2018 at 08:28 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 11-03-2018, 08:14 AM   #38
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M118LR,

Fwiw, you OBVIOUSLY don't hunt the TX Brush Country as the CSM & I do. = You cannot SEE game farther than 50M in 90+% of our lease & often NOT half that far, UNLESS you are in an elevated stand. = My Model 760 in .300SAV is "dead on" at 50M & I use NOTHING but 180 grain JSP for hunting the thick stuff, as IF a deer runs more than 50-100M, you may NEVER find your buck.
(That's why any number of South Texas hunters have a SPECIALIZED "Bean Field Rifle" for tall tower stands & that usually wears a 3-9X or a 6X scope. = My first cousin has a "target grade" Remington 700BDL, that is in .25-06 for use from the tower.)

yours, sw
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Old 11-03-2018, 08:35 AM   #39
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When I was a kid and hunted the brush I carried a .30-30 Marlin lever action loaded with 170 grain SPs. And, yes, once in a while it had to cut brush to get my buck.
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Old 11-04-2018, 02:43 PM   #40
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csmkersh,

I suspect but do NOT know that it was OFTEN, rather than "once in a while" IF the brush where you hunt is as THICK as it is where our lease is.

yours, tex
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