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View Poll Results: Would you consider a H&K 93 or a FAL 223 AMBR or AN assault weapon
MBR 3 7.32%
Assault weapon 38 92.68%
Voters: 41. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-01-2003, 03:37 PM   #21
 
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I agree with Bill R on this one, it would have to be F A for assualt rifle status.
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Old 04-04-2003, 04:58 AM   #22
 
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I agree with Bill. whole heartedly, that the weapons I listed are not true asault weapons and MBRs but the civilian version and should not be associated with the military versions. The term "asault weapons" used by the Anti gun crowd has cause us legal gun onwers alot grief. I used the term for lack of better wording. I guess I should have said if these rifles had had selector switches what would they be concidered. As gun owners we do need to watch our wording for the the anti crowd will pick up on these catch words and use them against us. I have heard posters mentioned the Boston gun Bible It is very good reading and has a chapter or so on this subject. I recomend for those who have not read it. get it give a read.
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Old 04-04-2003, 07:39 PM   #23
 
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I personally don't even believe in the term "Assault Rifle." It was just a term Adolf Hitler made up to describe a weapon that was not quite a machine pistol and a far cry from a conventional battlerifle. I think that ANY weapon designed to be used in a military battle is a "battle rifle."
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Old 04-05-2003, 02:45 AM   #24
JR
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Hitler was against the whole idea. It was his general staff who came up with the idea of assault rifle to allow them to continue developing the weapon.
By the way, a Main Battle Rifle, by the DOD definition, need not be automatic capable. Only Assault Rifles and Submachineguns.



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Old 05-09-2003, 08:07 AM   #25
 
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MBR vs Assault Rifle

I thought the difference between a mbr and an assault rifle was cartridge size? MBR's use a full power rifle shell while assault rifles used smaller rounds that are not typically used a hunting rounds?
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Old 05-16-2003, 10:36 PM   #26
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I cinsider the difference between a MBR and an AR is that the MBR looks like rifle regardless of caliber.

That means that by my definition the M1, M14/M1A, FN49, Ljungmann-rifle + clones and military Mini-14 are MBR's.

L1A1/FAL, G3/HK91, HK93, AK47 + clones, AR-10, M16, AUG, FNC/AK5, Galil are then assault rifles.

Someone wrote that no one takes a SA rifle to combat, well the britts did, tha L1A1 is semi-only.

AR-10's were used by the portugese in Angola in the 60's and early 70's so i would call it battle-proven.



AUGman
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Old 05-17-2003, 06:31 AM   #27
 
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The FAL is clearly a MBR-over 90 countries used it as their general issue weapon, its got the knock down power with the NATO round. The AK47 is an assault rifle. Its a carbine because it uses carbine ammo. If they would have made the AK in 7.62x54, that would have been an MBR.


MIke
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Old 05-17-2003, 07:41 AM   #28
JR
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The DoD definition of Main Battle Rifle was a shoulder fired, full power rifle cartidge weapon.(8mm, .30-06, .308, 7.62x54R)

The assault rifle was a shoulder fired, automatic capable, intermediate caliber, weapon.( .223, 5.45x39, etc.)

The submachinegun was a shoulder fired, automatic capable, pistol caliber weapon. (9mm, .32ACP, 10mm, .45ACP, 9x18, etc.)

The original designation of an MBR didn't even require that the rifle be semi-auto.

I also believe that the FAL was normally produced as an auto weapon, but locked out during production. The majority of M14 rifles were also locked into semi-auto only.



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Old 05-17-2003, 09:57 AM   #29
 
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Quote:
Tell that to the Rangers who were in Somalia, many of who made accurate centermass shots and were still unable to "knock down" their attacker's (who by the way had .30 cal rifles) And don't even get me started on the ballsitics of a .223 round after it hits a soft or even a semi-hard target.
How would a 308 be any more effective than a .223 against skinny people wearing very little clothing. It is my understanding that the .223 did not perform well because the 62 gr. bullet does not fragment as quickly as a 55 gr. that combined with the attacker's being thin ment the bullet would pass through without fragmenting. Now wouldn't the heavier .308 round just pass through the attacker's body leaving nothing more than the .30 hole? Are you trying to say that the .08" difference in the wound size is going to somehow make a huge difference in knock down power.
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Old 05-17-2003, 06:47 PM   #30
 
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Are you trying to say that the .08" difference in the wound size is going to somehow make a huge difference in knock down power

The differance is in the energy and the velocity that the .308 has over the .223. Its like comparing the Suburban to the sportscar. The sportscar is faster, has more zip, and is quicker off the line, the Suburban can be quick, has a lot more power, and God help the person who get hit by one. Im not saying the .223 is inferior, im just saying that the .308 in my opinion has more take down power. I know this personally. Whenever I bag a deer, I always use my Garand . One shot, boom, one kill. One year I used my cousins .223 bolt action, I had to unload the whole thing into the deer before it dropped.

MIke [/b]
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Old 05-18-2003, 02:26 AM   #31
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunray
"The new AR-10's you're seeing now are copies and marketing ploys of the original rifles that were built in the 50's by Armalite in the States and Holland. As I recall, they were used by the Sudan, Holland and very few other countries.
For the comlete information: Artilerie Inrichtingen (AI) by Hembrug in Zaandam, the Netherlands (the former state weapons and ammunition plant), bought the rights from mr. E Stoner, because nobody wanted his design. AI re-designed it, and tested it for years under all thinkeble situations. Everytime modifications where add on. The weapon worked well. There where many version (infact, we even don't know how many version there are around. Most of them , exept from some small details, looks the same. There was a Carbine version made, and a belt-fed LMG made, with a fast removeble barrel).
One problem was never realy salved: the boldcatch breaks easly. We alway's shoot with a dummy as last round.
It was the plan, that the AR-10 replaced the Garand in 1957, but because of the leftwinked goverment, who wanted to ban all weapon factory's from the Netherlands, we had to adopt the FN FAL.
It hurt's, that the FAL is replaces by a Diemaco C7, wich the same design!
Our National Matches (for civilians) where always shot with heavy tuned versions of the AR10. the AI plant accurized the AR10 and Garand for the Matches, and they shot records with them. The records stand till the begin '90's, and are overshot by the SIG PE-90 now. A original AI tuned Garand or AR10 are very rare and expansive here.
A normal AI Hembrug AR10, will go for aprox USD 1000,- here.

Greets,

Roger
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Old 05-18-2003, 02:44 AM   #32
 
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I would like to know exactly what ammo you and your cousin were using.

I assume you were using blunt tip, soft point bullets, or some other expanding bullet. When dealing with expanding bullets, the 150 gr. .308 is far superior to the 60 gr. .223. It expands bigger and penetrates further. The military doesn't use expanding bullets. It uses FMJ bullets which do not expand. As a result, the only wound differenct is a slightly larger hole.

Military rifle bullet wound patterns
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Old 05-18-2003, 06:55 AM   #34
JR
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I believe that the Somalia expedition found themselves in very close proximity to the enemy. The .223 was traveling at nearly muzzle velocity, and the enemy found themselves witness to "the piece of straw run through a fence post in a tornado" effect. The small-diameter bullets went straight through so fast that zero energy was shed. The body also closed off the wounds by involuntary spasm of the muscle. No blood, no leakage of air into the chest cavity, no soldier fall down until later.
I think that the extra diameter of the .308 spread the blunt force trauma out enough that the terrs had to react. It also created a wound channel large enough to cause immediate bleeding and leakage of air into the chest cavity, collapsing the lungs. No blood to the brain, no air to the lungs, soldier fall down.
I just finished reading a British Book about the Infantry's Small Arms. It was written in the late 1990's. There were several references to the inferiority of the 5.56 as a man-stopper. One was an eye-witness account of the shooting of an Argentine during the Falklands Conflict. A British soldier engaged an Argentine from less than 100 yards away, shooting him four times in the chest. The Argentine refused to fall, swung up his FAL, and shot the British soldier, injuring him severely. This was witnessed by his Company Commander, who later ascertained that all four hits were in the torso of the Argentine soldier.
While nothing was a 100% stopper, it seems that we often hear about the 5.56 and it's failures to stop.



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Old 05-18-2003, 09:12 AM   #35
 
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In Kalifornia You can only hunt Deer with a rifle that's 25 cal. or over for humane reasons. Every book on ballistics will classify the 223 as a varmint round, no matter how fast you push it. People who are in the
professional business of assassination useing a rifle, will always choose a 30. caliber round or bigger. Why ? Not because of the range, but because of the expansion, and deflection, and the retained energy properties. The only reason we have the 5.56 today is because we pushed our blunder on everybody else. (NATO).

If You take all the rifles that are in the armies of the world today.
80% of them would be a 30 cal. configuration.

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Old 05-18-2003, 11:29 AM   #36
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I have to say that bigger is better. I have fired .223, .308 and 30-06 at steel plates. Most of the time the 223 rounds don't even dent the steel. 308 and 30-06 have about the same effect as that they are very similar loadings and velocities. A standard FMJ round can almost puncture 1/2 inch of mild steel. If you change over to AP in 30-06 you can knock a whole through 7/8 inch mild steel. The main problem that I have always seen with the 223 round is that if the other pearson is wearing body armor you are in real trouble. The 308 and 30-06 rounds can easily penetrate many layers of an armored vest but if the 223 is designed to turn and tumble this is what a vest stops best. That goes the same for people hiding behind walls or behind vehicles. I would love to know if someone thinks that they can shoot a person behind a brick wall with the smaller 223 round. Regardless of what damage a bullet does inside the body, if it doesn't get there it still serves no purpose.
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Old 05-18-2003, 11:36 AM   #37
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Opps, slightly off target. A MBR is what all of thes guns started out as. Assault rifles are what happens to a good idea when the politicians get their grubby mits on it.
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Old 05-20-2003, 05:01 AM   #38
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I have an Armalite AR10 and an M1 Garand in .308 and my brother shoots an Armalite AR15... at the range we goto there are railroad ties placed vertically into the ground in a line so that chicken wire and be spread across them to create a sorta fence in which to hange your targets. The front of the railroad ties are protected by a long piece of 1/2 inch steel in the shape of a "V" to deflect round off so the ties don't get shot up. We both use military surplus and at 100 yards my .308 round goes thru the steel whereas my brothers .223 barely makes a dent and deflects off... I think that is sorta a testament of the penetrating power of the .308 round... I think where a man is concerned that the .223 would be more likely to be deflected by bone... whereas the .308 would crush the bone as it was going thru....
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Old 05-20-2003, 06:26 AM   #39
 
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I thought that was the whole Idea of the 223 round. It is supose to bounce around the body causeing more damage than just crushing bone and going through and through. I was reading a book the Complete AR15/M16 source book and there are excerpt in there on Advisers in the early sixties in Vietnam that tested the M16. These adviser were suprised by the damage the little bultet could do.compared to the 308 that usulay went through. but of course that was back then when the bullet was more unstable. My 2 cents worth is that I would prefere the bigger round. In my book big is better. who ever said that good things come in small packeges must have been talking about the BBT delivering a pistol
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