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Old 03-19-2019, 06:46 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csmkersh View Post
M118LR, do you ever mix in solids for penetration?
Solid like linotype, monolithic copper, or fully jacketed lead like OTM?

I've used a lot of OTM's and Noslers while hunting, tried a few solids mostly out of a scattergun, and I've sent more linotype down revolver barrels than I probably should have. But I haven't found a need for monolithic solids on critters with soft fur hides. A 20 round mag of FMJBT M118's delivered from an M14 on full-automatic was enough to anchor a stripped kitty that had ideas of me on the menu. 8 - 1 1/2 ounce solid lead slugs worked well on a polar bear. Both times I was the hunted and not the hunter, so the distance/range of the engagements was not of my choosing. But for Bison, Cape Buffalo, Elephant etc.. or lower velocity cartridges solids might be a good selection. If I had time to load a single solid when broadsiding dangerous game on the point of the shoulder, I'd probably consider it. But nosler's have quite the proven track record on the same broadside style of shot. So I really haven't used a lot of monolithic solids. OTM's and FMJ's seem to penetrate well enough on the game I normally hunt that the extra expense of monolithic solids makes them an extravagance. JMHO.

sw, every scribe for every rag that scratched out a living since 1907 has written that the 30-06 is more than adequate for all North American Game. Most of Africa has been legislated that .375 is now the smallest/ballistic min for big game. A near miss with even a howitzer is still nothing more than a near miss. Shot placement is and shall always be the key to a successful harvest. JMHO.

Last edited by M118LR; 03-19-2019 at 09:14 PM.
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Old 03-19-2019, 11:29 PM   #22
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M118LR,

Fwiw, ALL of the African governments (that still allow hunting) accept the 9.3x62mm & the 9.3x74mm as "exceptions to" the minimum .375 caliber policy.

Furthermore Dame Julia Lane Palmer might well have spent far less time in the New Delhi hospital & recovery facility had she used a rifle with more "anchoring power" than her beloved .275 Rigby (AKA: 7x57mm). = A postmortem examination of the tigress indicated that Palmer had missed the tiger's heart by about 2 inches.

Personally, I believe that a hunter is wise to hunt dangerous game with the heaviest caliber that he/she shoots well.

ADDENDA: Reference your comments on what "gun writers" think is an adequate caliber for all Western Hemisphere hunting, I wonder how many of those authors have faced a hungry polar bear at about 20M, as Pastor Roy did inside the church.

yours, sw

Last edited by Doughboy; 03-19-2019 at 11:46 PM. Reason: clarity
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Old 03-20-2019, 06:09 AM   #23
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M118LR,

I was still talking about either a Polar or Kodiak bear and had copper solids in mind. Hard lead like linotype most likely work too. While big brownies may have soft fur you need to get deep to the heart or break shoulder to anchor ( Hopefully ) them.

Granted, if you've been stalking and suddenly you become the hunted you don't have time or inclination to change what's in the tube.

stand watie:

My favorite writer, Ruark, didn't even have his usual shotgun for mombas the night a leopard tried to have him for supper. Close call.

Last edited by csmkersh; 03-20-2019 at 12:42 PM. Reason: wrong homonym
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Old 03-20-2019, 07:36 AM   #24
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csmkersh,

TRUE. - Also Virginia Ruark one night in 1956 "went to the small tent" about 15M away in her PJs with only a flashlight & found that she was being stalked by a leopard.
(Mrs. Ruark said later that she had no way of knowing WHY the cat chose to NOT attack her, as "He seemed focused upon me".)

Btw, as I've said elsewhere, my boyhood was rather unpleasant/lonely. THE OLD MAN & THE BOY" & other Ruark books were my constant companion.

Also, I've heard the Mockingbird's song & repeatedly tried to buy "The Old Man's" house in Southport, so far to no avail.

yours, sw

Last edited by Doughboy; 03-20-2019 at 02:46 PM. Reason: grammar
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Old 03-20-2019, 03:32 PM   #25
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I believe that the hunters rifle and the guides gun don't fill the same role. The guide's gun is usually only required to halt wounded charging game at close range. Therefore larger diameter & heavier projectiles for deeper penetration (as sw proclaims) allow for better "Stopping Power". However, a .30 caliber 220 grain properly constructed projectile even at 30-06 velocity inside of 200 yards has more than enough kinetic energy for a one shot stop on a Coke Cola guzzling white bear, provided that the shot is properly placed. It would be a toss up between the Nosler partition for a broadside, or a Sierra OTM for a quartering shot (towards/away)

As I mentioned before, don't know as I am still good enough to stalk a polar bear on his ice pack closer than 200 yards. But 200 yards would be what I consider the max range with my current skill set and either 30-06/300 Win Mag. If I still felt that I could stalk a polar bear on the ice consistently inside of 100 yards, perhaps a larger diameter heavier more rigidly constructed projectile & accompanying rifle would be of more consideration. But hunting rifles are carried much more than shot, so weight & length are a consideration to me currently.
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Old 03-20-2019, 04:06 PM   #26
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M118lr,

To a point I agree with your comment about client & guide's guns being somewhat different BUT frankly I don't want a guide to HAVE to STOP a wounded & very dangerous animal because I insisted on using an INADEQUATE rifle to hunt with. = In other words, I would prefer to KILL my own game.

Btw, in the case of Lady Palmer's tigress, her Shikari shot the tigress to death at CONTACT RANGE with a .404 Jeffery's BA rifle, while the wounded cat was actually mauling the luckless huntress. = 400 grains of bullet directly into the side of any animal's head would, I suspect, even kill a T-REX.

Note: Lady Palmer, prior to that day had successfully collected over a HUNDRED driven Tigers, Indian Leopards and many trophies of numerous other sorts of Indian game. PROBABLY no other single huntress ever exceeded her take or ever will.
Nonetheless, a single shot, that failed by about 2 inches to hit the tigresses' heart, nearly cost her her life & ultimately crippled her for the remainder of her long life.

yours, sw

Last edited by Doughboy; 03-20-2019 at 07:23 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 03-20-2019, 04:35 PM   #27
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To All,

IF I ever find another NICE one, I'll buy a CZ Safari Magnum LH in .375 H&H. - In May 2017, I failed to immediately buy an "as new" LEFT-hand CZ 550 with a "beautifully-figured" stock & fitted with a quality 2.5X European scope. While I was "considering" it at 1600.oo plus tax, another man walked up to the table & offered the vendor 15 Franklins for it & walked away with "my rifle".
(At a previous Dallas Gunshow, I had looked at about a dozen 550 LH rifles & NONE of the new ones had a "decent-looking" stock. = "Very Plain Jane" & "Fence-post like" describes all of the new ones that we looked at.)

Moral: "He who hesitates, loses out to the guy with the cash."

yours, sw

Last edited by Doughboy; 03-20-2019 at 04:37 PM. Reason: add
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Old 03-20-2019, 06:42 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doughboy View Post
M118lr,

To a point I agree with your comment about client & guide's guns being somewhat different BUT frankly I don't want a guide to HAVE to STOP a wounded & very dangerous animal because I insisted on using an INADEQUATE rifle to hunt with. = In other words, I would prefer to KILL my own game.

yours, sw
I believe that your stretching INADEQUATE.

https://www.chuckhawks.com/grizzly_cartridges.htm

https://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/gu...zzly-cartridge

https://www.chuckhawks.com/firearms_defense_bears.htm

The 30-06 with 180 grain projectiles has proven more than adequate for Brown, Grizly, and Polar Bears. The 300 Win Mag ballistically & kinetically outperforms the 30-06.
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Old 03-20-2019, 07:13 PM   #29
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M118LR,

Fyi, I'm only stretching "inadequate" in your opinion. - Otoh, in my opinion, I'm correct.

You're welcome to hold ANY opinion, just as I am. = It's called FREEDOM of THOUGHT/EXPRESSION.

Note: As I said earlier, I have little interest in hunting in AK. Further, I wouldn't even consider hunting ANY dangerous game in Africa with less than the 9.3x62mm. =====> IF I can get CITES clearance to do so, I plan to try to take a Leopard on the trip, as "She who must be obeyed" wants a "spotted kitty" pelt to drape over the couch. That said, she is NOT nearly as enamored with looking at the head/shoulder mount of a Cape Buff on the den's wall.
Fyi, my choice for "CHUI" is the same 9.3x62mm JSP.

yours, sw

Last edited by Doughboy; 03-22-2019 at 09:02 PM. Reason: add
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Old 03-20-2019, 07:43 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doughboy View Post
M118LR,

Fyi, I'm only stretching "inadequate" in your opinion. - Otoh, in my opinion, I'm correct.

You're welcome to hold ANY opinion, just as I am. = It's called FREEDOM of THOUGHT/EXPRESSION.

yours, sw
Have I at any time stated that your opinion is wrong in any way?

I've even gone so far as to state that there is no replacement for cubic inch displacement.

I've referenced all my specifications to my particular skill set. Nowadays there are shooters out there that shall outperform me on a daily basis.

Once upon a time, when I could use iron sights like folks use glass Nowadays, every game animal in CONUS was harvested with a Peep sight atop a Marlin lever action in .444 Marlin caliber.

The difference between a Fairy Tail and a Sea Story?
One begins "This is NO $h!T" the other begins "Once upon a time"

Perhaps I'm asking this the wrong way round? What does the 9.3 x 62mm deliver at 200 yards that the 300 Win Mag doesn't deliver at 20 meters?

The bottom line is: at whatever yardage you can put 10 of 10 rounds on a ten inch paper plate from the standing position with the rifle on your shoulder, as long as the shooter can deliver and the cartridge has proven its performance on the big game animal in question. It's adequate.

Last edited by M118LR; 03-20-2019 at 08:10 PM. Reason: [email protected] vs 300 Win [email protected]
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Old 03-21-2019, 05:27 AM   #31
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M118LR & SW

Over the years I've seen numerous "experts" tout the .270 Winchester as adequate for all North American game including brownies. Please note I said North American. While I love the .270 for my hunting, I hunt non-dangerous game here in Texas. FWIW, I took more than a few white tail deer with a .30-30 in either a Model 94 or a Marlin 36 which preceded the 336 of current vintage.

I'll go with Raurk and "Use Enough Gun."
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Old 03-21-2019, 08:43 AM   #32
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csmkersh,

Fwiw, my "pet" Model 760 in .300SAV is often used successfully with a FNCB (plain base) for WT deer at about 1300FPS . - My CB load is a "clone" of the old-school .32-40WCF "standard speed" load.
(Many thousands of WT were successfully taken with the .32-40 & even lesser cartridges like the .32-20, .30 Carbine, .22 SAV or even the .22 Hornet for a LONG time. = WT deer at "brush-country"or "East TX swamp" ranges just aren't that hard to kill.)

Also, I load a GCCB 170 grain bullet to .30-30WCF speed that works FINE out beyond 100M for any native TX game AND for feral pigs.

BOTH are CHEAP to load.

That said, I wouldn't even consider a .30-06 for BIG bears IF I actually went hunting for one in AK or Canada.

Note: Pastor Roy says that the local Native hunters routinely have 4 or more hunters shoot at the SAME bear to assure its quick death. = A COOPERATIVE shooting, as obviously the NA hunters don't trust a single .30-06 round to kill a BIG bear before it can escape.

yours, sw

Last edited by Doughboy; 03-22-2019 at 09:05 PM. Reason: typo/clarity
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Old 03-21-2019, 09:07 AM   #33
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M118LR,

OK, I'll answer that one, though I suggest that it's a SILLY question:

1. A great deal LESS muzzle blast,
2. A great deal LESS recoil,
(I cannot tell much difference in the factory 286 grain 9.3x62mm load & a 220 grain load in the .30-06. - I suggest that you compare the foot pounds of recoil between the .300WIN MAG & the .30-06.)
3. At least as good penetration of the thorax using the 286 grain "High-speed" factory load,
4. LESS cost per round,
5. The ability to be used in a STANDARD length action rather than a "Magnum length" action.
and
6. At 10X the range (200 vs 20 meters) of the .300WIN MAG, at least as good lethality on BIG/TOUGH game like the Cape Buffalo.

yours, sw

Last edited by Doughboy; 03-21-2019 at 09:09 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 03-21-2019, 06:55 PM   #34
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.300_Winchester_Magnum
300 Win Mag (7.62 x 67 mm)
220 grain 2850 fps 3908 ft-lbf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9.3%C3%9762mm
9.3 x 62 mm
286 grain 2362 fps 3544 ft-lbf

300 Win Mag is a standard long action cartridge.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...iz.j5U6FQMkew0

https://www.google.com/search?ei=BkG...67.c86pVA7ee2Q

https://www.livescience.com/27339-hippos.html

https://www.google.com/search?source...63.Rkxq3vvygg8

https://www.google.com/search?source...67.ssUWk1Zeyvc

Cape Buffalo 1300 lbs.
Black Rhino 1800-3100 lbs.
White Rhino 5100 lbs.
Hippo 3500-9900 lbs.
Elephant 13,000 lbs

Polar Bear 900-1200 lbs.

The .300 Win Mag (7.62 x 67 mm) delivers more energy at the muzzle and at 200 yards than the 9.3 x 62 mm.

Game animals like the Cape Buffalo, Black Rhino, White Rhino, Hippo, and Elephant have been legislated with the parent cartridge of the .300 Win Mag (.375 H&H) as a minimum, while dangerous the polar bear isn't in the same class as the aforementioned.
But I'm not going after "The Big Six" of Africa with this rifle. While I also believe that there isn't any such thing as overkill, the minimum requirements of an African Big Six Safari Rifle need not apply.

But I'll concede that there may be slightly more muzzle flash, but an AAC Brakeout can compensate for that.

But I would like to Thank You for your insight and input, you have given me honest points to muse.

csmkersh, I believe I previously referenced Jack O'Conner's experience with the penetration of North America's largest bruins by a 30-06. Something like a simple 180 Pointed Soft Point completely penetrated the largest of North America's Bruins on a point of shoulder shot, and kicked up dirt on the other side. Over penetration isn't the key to a successful one shot stop. Controlled expansion delivering the maximum kinetic energy & hydraulic shock afforded by the cartridge to the intended target, that's the key to "Stopping Power" (a factor of only properly placed shots). A .22 short to the medulla oblongata has more "Stopping Power" than any cartridge of any caliber of an ill placed shot. JMHO. Over 1000 Elephants with properly placed 7 x 57's? Minimum for elephants legislated as .375 nowadays. The largest of calibers won't make up for a misplaced round. Yet there is a comfort factor for a properly sized and energy delivering round of correct construction in the proper spot..... to the game animal being stalked. Once again, JMHO.

Last edited by M118LR; 03-21-2019 at 08:27 PM.
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Old 03-22-2019, 06:34 AM   #35
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M118LR

I'm know of both a .22LR and a .45ACP stopping a bear. Not my choice of ammo but that's all the shooter had with him at the time and was damned glad to have that. And over penetration is a waste of ballistic energy and a danger to others if the shot is taken in an urban environment.

FYI, I've preached bullet placement over caliber/gauge for several decades.
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Old 03-22-2019, 08:29 AM   #36
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csmkersh,

I don't believe that any experienced hunter would argue with the prime importance of shot placement.
That said, I don't think that there much doubt that a larger caliber/"heavy for caliber" bullet at moderate velocity will stop an animal better than a small caliber but high velocity bullet that hits the same spot, if for no other reason than the larger caliber, under most conditions, makes a more severe wound..

just my opinion, sw
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Old 03-22-2019, 09:53 AM   #37
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I've used a 5.56 ammo on Texas white tails once and decided it was inadequate. Oh, I knew DoD blundered when they decided a greater ammo load on Snuffy was more important than stopping Charlie.
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Old 03-22-2019, 10:17 AM   #38
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csmkersh,

AGREED 100%, though I would suggest that a 77 grain JHP at about 2500FPS is "just OK" for WT at the ranges where I hunt (SELDOM over 75M & often less than 50M).

Remind me sometime to tell you about the afternoon that my "high-tempered" 1st cousin "wrapped a M1 Carbine around a post oak tree".

yours, sw

Last edited by Doughboy; 03-22-2019 at 10:25 AM. Reason: add
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Old 03-22-2019, 08:32 PM   #39
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Quote:
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csmkersh,

AGREED 100%, though I would suggest that a 77 grain JHP at about 2500FPS is "just OK" for WT at the ranges where I hunt (SELDOM over 75M & often less than 50M).

Remind me sometime to tell you about the afternoon that my "high-tempered" 1st cousin "wrapped a M1 Carbine around a post oak tree".

yours, sw
So sorry the good stuff keeps getting trashed. So it's Bottom line harsh stuff.

Your 286 .366 9.3 x 62 mm load is actually the lighter per caliber projectile.

SD .305 vs .331.

.300 Win Mag shoots flatter, penetrates deeper, and hits harder than the 9.3 x 62. These are the things that experienced hunters select.

It's the like the .357 Mag vs the .41 Mag on a 120 lb canine at 20 yards only scaled up.

Both the 300WM & 9.3 are going to completely penetrate the largest Polar Bear Broadside @ 200 yards. With Monolithic Solids odds are that both will completely penetrate a Polar Stem to Stern @ 20 yards.

Nosler Partition Spitzer's have the same BC, not that it's important @ 200 yards.

Each of us have experiences with these cartridges, so I'll chalk up our minute (.058 ) differences to these experiences.

Got to admit, your confidence in the 9.3 x 62 mm has me researching what Arctic friendly controlled round feed rifles are available. Uncle Sam gave me the chance to test many different manufactures bolt actions in the Arctic, unfortunately CZ wasn't one of them.


Like Dragnet, just the facts. It was a lot nicer and more defined before I once again got the boot for to much time. Sorry if it sounds gruff, the original draft was much more informative and way gentiler.

Last edited by M118LR; 03-23-2019 at 03:31 PM. Reason: 9.3 x 62 arctic rifle
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Old 03-23-2019, 04:02 PM   #40
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Found a Ruger 77 African Limited NIB 9.3 x 62 mm on gun broker. Got any input?
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/805192707
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