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Old 07-23-2007, 07:28 AM   #1
 
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Forend Tension?(lack of)

I have an SAI std that lacks any forend tension whatever.The HR trigger group begins lockup right at the trigger as it should but results in no forend tension as i mentioned? What are the normal fixes for this short of steel bedding if any?-shimming?
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Old 07-23-2007, 07:38 AM   #2
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Very interested in the answer(s) to this question because I have a Poly that's the same way--and in several USGI stocks, too (both wood and plastic). And it's been giving me way more lateral dispersion than I'd prefer.
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Old 07-23-2007, 09:06 AM   #3
 
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just finished speaking with a smith,reccomended steel bedding as the only answer and mentioned he had a wenigs laminated stock
as well.Sure,$500+ or so for a std SAI to fix forend tension.Madman.Moneypit,all these come to mind. As it sits accuracy is about what Id expect fro a std battlerifle,2.5moa w/match 3.5 w/ball.I sure cant justify that kind of $ for a battlerifle.
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Old 07-23-2007, 10:28 AM   #4
 
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You have three choices:

1. Leave it alone and shoot it as is...

2. Do a Full Glass Bed with all the attendent Problems and Maint issues.

3. Do just the Top Rails and Horse-shoe to raise the barrel angle and provide you more fore-arm pressure...It will not give you the accuracy of a full bedding job but will in theory tighten the clamping pressure and allow you to increase the fore-end pressure and decrease the shot to shot dispersion. It would be in effect shimming the top end with a Steel bed material.

While I have not done this on a wooded stock, I often do it on the USGI synthetic's that I strengthen the Fore-ends on to provide a bit more pressure and tighten up the groups.

I just do the top rails and the horse-shoe with Brownells Glass gel...with the Barrel sitting on a stright med weight coat hanger after sliding the Gas system forward a bit. It Has worked well on some of the Field rifles I have done for my son and friends. It is in no way a replacemnet, or the equal of a full blown glass job. but You will still need the "U" lock

It's like shims on Roids or epoxy. it just adjusts the angles dude!!! and tighens up the lock up. I have no dog in this fight..am not going to make a dime selling you anything..but I have found some gumsmiths will do the thing that makes them the most money...not tell you how to get a good job in your basement. Just something to think about before you jump in with $500.00. Give my method a try and you will see that my Ortho Surgical training is basiclly Mechanical and Structrual enginering on the human body...I have used the method a dozen times and had very good luck with it...Never had a gun shoot worse when I was done and most often they shoot a LOT better

Hans
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Old 07-23-2007, 12:49 PM   #5
 
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Im sure just shimming the ferrule has been tried???
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Old 07-23-2007, 01:11 PM   #6
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Gee, the old body of knowledge is lost ALREADY???

One trick from the M1 Garand days is to slip a business card (the shorter dimension) under the front of the receiver (both sides-between top of stock and under the receiver ledge) before clamping it down, and firing a few shots to see if groups tighten up a bit. Careful application of a razorblade or appropriately sharp knife tip is one way to trim the excess.

Reportedly, this was also done in the field/on the line if the bedding had shot loose. If fore-end tension was okay, then an alternative was putting the cardstock at the bedding points of the trigger group--another alternative to avoid changing fore-end tension was cardstock in front as described and under the receiver heel.
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Old 07-23-2007, 03:16 PM   #7
 
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Sounds very similar to what Hans suggested except hes using epoxy rather than cardboard.Would shimming/glassing the TG possibly increase forend tension?Do believe with some forend tension the rifle will shoot much better than it is, but if not Ill live w/2.5 moa match and 3.5 privi ball.Gonna try th bushing the ferrule at any rate unless something else comes along nothing ventured no permanet mods unless it inmproves in which case Ill bend the
gas cylinder ferrule as a last resort or simply epoxy brass shim material to the stock ferrule.Sure as hell not spending $500 on an SAI std thats been a freakin nightmare since I bought it.However this is the LAST problem I can discern with the rifle and success.Then on to USGI replacement p[arts/match or chrome bbl.
LOL never satisfied.
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Old 07-23-2007, 04:03 PM   #8
 
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Your problem is on the top end...I would not screw with the Bottom at this point. Also you could spring the lockup if you build it up too much on both the top and bottom

You need to create forend pressure, you do that by creating an upward angle of the Barrel. Follow my instructions and you will have the right fore-end pressure..it doesn't take a lot...just enought to make sure things return to prefiring place time after time. it will take only about 1/3 the epoxy that is required to do a standard Skim bed

I bet with a careful job and good match ammo if you follow my suggestion you will shave off .75 MOA and cut your Lateral dispersion by about 1/2. BTW the most valuble non-bedding mod is to unitize the Gas-system and front band.

Hans
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Old 07-23-2007, 05:26 PM   #9
 
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I had intended to unitize the gas cylinder as a matter of course
so what effect will this have?And Im assuming the unitizing be done first?
The composite stock itself shows clearly where the rear reciever has been settling as well as forward where 2 distinct lines have formed from the reciever itself.I believe i am following your ideas.
But could you provide a pic of the area you do?That would be of immeasurable help.Im not new to epoxy bedding having done in the main bolt guns bu also experimented w/semis such as the sks
which seemed to have a similar setup as far as forend tension.So at least im aware of glass bedding basics/make the theory a little clearer and That may be the answer,.50moa and .75 lateral dispersion Is quite enough for a std sai improvement combined with what I did want to spend money on.Fit HR bolt and HR op rod as well as ahooded.520 nm peep.NM sp[ring guide/ream FH oif course unitize gas cylinder assembly.
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Old 07-24-2007, 05:06 AM   #10
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Unitizing the gas cylinder has the effect of “locking” the barrel to the stock, by making sure the receiver/barrel returns to the same spot in the stock after the bullet has left the barrel.

I’m not sure if the unitizing has to be done first, however I’m not sure if will do any good if the receiver/barrel is not shimmed or bedded. If the barrel has no tension on the stock, then the front band is not “holding” the barrel in the same position every shot.

What the shimming/bedding does is to put the receiver and barrel in the stock at a slight upward angle, then the front band will hook on to the front ferrule and put a slight bend in the barrel. This is where the tension comes from. If the gas cylinder is unitized without shimming/bedding it will just float with the barrel.

I know what Hans is talking about, and it is I guess I would call it “half bedded”. It would be much easier than a full-blown bedding job, and serve you well. You will just be bedding the top half (barreled action) and if I had a way of drawing and getting it on here, I would give it a try. If you have Kunhanson’s(sp?) or Duff’s book, just draw imaginary line just below the barrel from the front ferrule to the back of the stock, parallel with the bore. Every thing above the line gets bedding.
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Old 07-24-2007, 07:37 AM   #11
 
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My Top Bedding job works best if the gas system/front band is unitized..that said, Shims which are cheap and easy to do will work well.

A basic procedure for doing a USGI synthetic stock would be as follows:

1. Rough up the top left and right rails of the stock, removing the old paint and finish.

2. Rough up the the top Horse-shoe are of the heel of the stock, again removing the finish and old paint so the Epoxy will bind to the fiberglass.

3. Prep the Metal and coat with release agent, I use Paste wax. set aside as we are going to do some work forward of the reciever now.

4. unscrew the Lock and pull the Gas system and front band forward about 2 inches. sercure with painters tape so it doesn't marr the barrel finish.

5. Using a med wieght dry cleaning coat hanger cut it to a length of 2.5 inches, and put a VERY SLIGHT bend in the center of the hanger. Then place the hanger 1 inch back from the ferrule. The Barrel will rest on this and it will provide the upward angle that will give you the fore-end pressure you need.

6. Now mix up the Epoxy, and place a 1/8th inch high bead on the top rails and at the rear heel. Also, paint a small amount of epoxy into the angles of the Reciever to ensure the right angles are cleanly coated.

7. Now place the reciever into the stock and using the "U" lock with the safety ON clamp the trigger gaurd till the "U" lock just fits.

8. Now with a sharpened Popsicale stick clean up the overflow to give you nice clean edges...I suggest that you wait till the Epoxy takes on a slightly rubbery consistancy and trim till nice and smooth.

9. Leave it alone till tomorrow. then come back and remove action from stock and do any minor clean up that is needed. and reassemble rifle. You should have a bit of fore-end pressure now and you blaster should shoot tighter groups with FAR less shot dispersion.

If you are doing a Wood stock, you will need to drill and cut the channels for the epoxy to lock into...this will be more work than doing a Fiberglass stock.

Hans
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Old 07-24-2007, 01:39 PM   #12
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I'm going to glass bed another M14, but I'm going to do it with the gas cylinder installed, because I'm pretty sure that if I just put the wire on the stock with no gas cylinder, it's just going ot center the barrel in the barrel channel, which probably isn't too exact a surface or in close enough agreement to my stock ferrule. I also want my gas cylinder, receiver and barrel to center up on the stock ferrule, which it will do if you bed it with the gas components installed.


Danny
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Old 07-24-2007, 03:17 PM   #13
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FWIW, all, I took a flip though the M14 mil specs and there's no requirement for tension up front (but we all pretty much agree that it's a good thing to have).


Hans--
Do you have to stiffen the forend before you bed the USGI synthetic as you described? I would suspect that it would be hard to get much tension at all otherwise (like trying to use a wet noodle for a spring).

Ty
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Old 07-24-2007, 03:45 PM   #14
 
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I always stiffen the Fore-end...Part of the fore-end pressure depends on having a firm, stiff Fore-end.

Remember, I am looking for Match or near match accuracy with these stocks...When I want true NM accuracy I do a FULL Bedding job with Devcon Steel putty, and I open the Ferrule to NM specs. After I reinforce the Fore-end and fill the selector cuts.

When you do a Full house Mod and Glass job, on a synthetic stock you can get accuracy that is every bit as good as bedding a over sized NM Birch stock.

BTW: the purpose of of placing a Slight bend in the Coat hanger is that you can center it in the Barrel channel. No need to leave the Gas system in place...part of the pre epoxy fitting process will ensure the barrel centers in the channel. You don't want to induce any tensions in the Barrel or bedding by forcing things.

Hans
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Old 07-24-2007, 03:49 PM   #15
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That's pretty much what I figured

My only experience with bedding has been with heavy match stocks where you almost need two hands to pinch a gap up at the forend. I've done it both with a coathanger and a little block shim--both ways worked out pretty well.

Ty
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Old 07-24-2007, 05:14 PM   #16
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Actually, It's the other way around. there's no reason to REMOVE the gas cylinder. I know that certain persons from the USMC that have used the coat hanger have stated time and time again that you DON'T remove the gas system. I'm sure that he's done more than you and I combined and any handful of others here.

Danny
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Old 07-25-2007, 11:02 AM   #17
 
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Danny:

Not to disagree with you, but All I have are unitized gas systems/front bands...your method will work very well with the rack grades...but these unitized systems make it a bit more difficult to get proper tension. Unless you pull the gas system/front band forward so that it doesn't hook the front ferrule? is that what you do?

I tried the method you are suggesting, but it didn't work well for me...but maybe I am not understanding the full procedure you follow.

Please be more specific...Maybe you are doing things in a different way than I am and It works but I havn't thought to do it that way. I keep learning the more I keep my mind open to new options. Please share with me!

I am always open to new ideas...Thanks!
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Old 07-25-2007, 12:37 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gas_gunner
I'm going to glass bed another M14, but I'm going to do it with the gas cylinder installed, because I'm pretty sure that if I just put the wire on the stock with no gas cylinder, it's just going ot center the barrel in the barrel channel, which probably isn't too exact a surface or in close enough agreement to my stock ferrule. I also want my gas cylinder, receiver and barrel to center up on the stock ferrule, which it will do if you bed it with the gas components installed.


Danny
There is an alternative of using a bushing to center the barrel over the stock. Inside diameter is "close enough" to slip it over the barrel (Gas system and FS OFF). A larger outside diameter acts as a stop to keep it from drifting up the stock--hits the front of the stock ferrule. A smaller outside diameter rests on the front, top of the stock and centers the barrel while providing the correct elevation above the stock to give you your angles for tension.

It's buried in some American Rifleman article somewhere between 1965 and 1973, IIRC. Sorry I don't have more info.

Leaving the gas system on or trying to use it to center the barrel is considered less than reliable. And since a unitized gas system is of reduced effectiveness if the unit wobbles around on the barrel splines, it's a good idea anyway to take it all off to tighten it all up.
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Old 08-05-2007, 07:27 PM   #19
 
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question??

Quote:
Also, paint a small amount of epoxy into the angles of the Reciever to ensure the right angles are cleanly coated
Are you talking a little epoxy in the sides of the stock where the receiver is to fit?
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Old 08-05-2007, 10:04 PM   #20
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Re: question??

Quote:
Originally Posted by kivaari
the sides of the stock where the receiver is to fit?
Lugs.
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