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Old 11-18-2004, 05:18 PM   #1
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Let's talk accuracy

I've heard a few numbers thrown around (3 to 5 inches), and I want to see what the consensus is.
On a service grade rifle, with a post-war barrel in good shape, in a exceptionally tight/well-fitting stock, using surplus ammo, what kind of groups should you expect?
Am I unreasonable in expecting 2-2.5 inch groups?
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Old 11-18-2004, 05:37 PM   #2
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Expect 2-4"...period.

Less than that and you are lucky.

More than that and you need to find the problem.

An M1 in VG condition should shoot into 4" or less. (@100)
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Old 11-18-2004, 05:43 PM   #3
 
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Ditto [email protected]".......
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Old 11-18-2004, 05:48 PM   #4
 
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Cowboy, I shoot an 03-A3 that groups 1.5 to 2 regularly. I shoot an M1917 that groups 2 to 3 regularly, but so far I have not been able to get my garand ,which is in better conditon than a "service"
garde rifle to print groups better than 4-5-6- and because I shoot the othr rifles more often I know its not the shooter! My M1A groups in with my 03-A3, and it's a standard grade with a 1961 winchester chrome barrel. Go figure, I like to shoot the Garand
but those targets are just plain a disgrace to me and I've tried
everything short of glass bedding and match grade improvements
to accurize, (I want to keep it battle basic). This is all Iron sights
and over an ammo box for support/sight in. When I shoot in positions the groups vary according to which one etc. So your question is also my question.
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Old 11-18-2004, 06:05 PM   #5
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On the other hand my 5.4 mil CMP CG rifle put 5 rounds of LC69 ammo into 1.75".

If your rifle is shooting more than 4" you need to find out why. Are the groups "round" or do you have 4 tight ones and a flyer?


What ammo are you using? Is it accurate in another rifle? Have you tried different ammo in the M1?

Lots of places to look on an M1..the ammo is a good starting point.

Next would be barrel and muzzle condition.

Next is fit of the stock...is it tight? Can the reciever move around in the stock without the trigger housing in it? Are the handguards tight and binding between the reciever, barrel band and rear of the gas cylinder? They shouldn't be touching the reciever or the rear of the gas cyl. They should only touch at the barrel band...is the band solid on the barrel or does it wiggle?

Finally the fit of the oprod and other parts can affect the group size as well.

Lots of things to check!

And that's not all of them!
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Old 11-18-2004, 07:17 PM   #6
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It's reasonable to expect 4" or less at 100yds. if you get 1 MOA with a service grade gun, no bedding and combat sights in good condition you are doing EXEPTIONALLY well.
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Old 11-18-2004, 07:33 PM   #7
 
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Jeremy , interesting post, good info. I have a lot to learn about my garand and I'm making progress reading all the available material and posts here on this site, However I must add that a rifle that requires so much tweaking to be accurate is a bit disconcerting.
As I posted earlier mine is reading about 4 to 5 at 100 with some
fliers and perhaps this is not too bad all things considered. In BATTLE I'd rather have a semi auto at 4 to 5 than a bolt at
1.5 to 2 inches if you know what I mean !!
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Old 11-18-2004, 07:48 PM   #8
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I wasn't really asking about any rifle in particular. I've done all the GCA legal mods on all my M1's, some with more sucess than others. I have a Winchester that will shoot 2" no problem. I was shooting a 5.4 mil SA today and it was getting about 2.5 inches, sometimes a little over. I have really tweaked her, and put a great DGR stock on it. I just wanted to see if it was reasonable to think I could squeeze any more out of her as a service grade without doing any handloading. Guess not.
Thanks for all the input guys.

Jeremy, The ammo lately has been LC from the CMP. I think they shoot a little tighter with GA Arms. Everything fits as it should.
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Old 11-18-2004, 08:07 PM   #9
 
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My H&R meets all the criteria listed on the first post: tight bedding, new barrel, never shot after rebuild. With Korean PS or US LC it will honestly shoot about 1.5 to 1.75" from the bench at 100, and prone at 200 it shoots sligtly less than 3.5".

An amazing rifle. If I would shoot better, I could have made it into the top 20 of this year's Garand Match at Camp Perry.
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Old 11-18-2004, 09:05 PM   #10
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4 inch groups at 100 yards, is accetable and not too shabby for a service grade rifle without anything done to it, and with a decent barrel...........remember these are not super dooper, secret squirrel, spec ops, black helicpoter kill a fly at 1,000 meters away sniper rifles.
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Old 11-18-2004, 09:33 PM   #11
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Just to add fuel to the fire... I shot this group with my, almost correct, WRA Garand and 173gr loads (45.5gr IMR4895) at 200yds.. I never have been able to produce this size group again...
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File Type: jpg WRA 173gr Group.jpg (22.2 KB, 634 views)
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Old 11-18-2004, 11:12 PM   #12
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bridgeport
Jeremy , interesting post, good info. I have a lot to learn about my garand and I'm making progress reading all the available material and posts here on this site, However I must add that a rifle that requires so much tweaking to be accurate is a bit disconcerting.
As I posted earlier mine is reading about 4 to 5 at 100 with some
fliers and perhaps this is not too bad all things considered. In BATTLE I'd rather have a semi auto at 4 to 5 than a bolt at
1.5 to 2 inches if you know what I mean !!
That's just it - 4 to 5 at 100yds with a high-powered semi-auto battle rifle IS 'accurate'.
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Old 11-19-2004, 05:40 AM   #13
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWO daddy
My H&R meets all the criteria listed on the first post: tight bedding, new barrel, never shot after rebuild. With Korean PS or US LC it will honestly shoot about 1.5 to 1.75" from the bench at 100, and prone at 200 it shoots sligtly less than 3.5".
Garands that shoot like that are not so rare. I have seen many and owned a few of them that would do exactly that or even better.

If your Garand has a good bore and the stock and the handguards are correctly fitted and the gas cylinder is tight and correctly positioned on the barrel then there is no reason why it would not shoot well.

A few years ago before I was taught to shoot I would have thought a 4 inch 100 yard group with a Garand was as good as they could do because that was all I could do.
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Old 11-19-2004, 05:40 AM   #14
 
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I had questioned the same thing about accuracy, and will start trying to narrow down my groups.
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Old 11-19-2004, 02:24 PM   #15
 
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With both of my M1's I can repeat groups of 3" at 100 with CMP ammo off a bench. On a good day my 3.5M SA will shoot 2-2.5" with my home rolled off a bench at 100. This winter I'll be home accurizing my CMP 5.4 SG SA. I'm aiming for consistent 2.0 MOA or under and using this one for my HP matches.

rifle guy
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Old 11-19-2004, 02:47 PM   #16
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When measuring group size, are you always assuming a 5 round cluster?
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Old 11-19-2004, 03:12 PM   #17
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I usually go by either 3 or 5 shot groups. It varies. I don't know what the other guys do.
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Old 11-19-2004, 07:12 PM   #18
 
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I use 8-shots for my groupings.
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File Type: jpg 10-13-2004_m1_garand_150fmj_116.jpg (43.0 KB, 308 views)
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Old 11-20-2004, 07:27 AM   #19
 
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The more shots you fire in a group, the more meaningful the data.... as every extra shot you fire increases the chance that any tendencies to throw flyers by the rifle will show up.

I usually always shoot 8-10 rounds per group (8 is convenient with the M1 ). This gives me a better idea of what that load & rifle will do in a match than 3-5 shots will.

If a rifle has the want to throw a flyer now and then, it'll usually always show up in a 10 shot string.

Just my method..... It works for me.

Best to all,
Swampy

Garands forever
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Old 11-20-2004, 02:12 PM   #20
 
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As a highpower shooter 20 round groups shot single loaded in twenty minutes is my accuracy test.

Many Garands and other rifles and shooters will group the first 5 rounds or so in a very tight one MOA group and it is only after you get up past the tenth round that problems show up because of heat or problems with the nut behind the buttplate.

I have a Turk Mauser that I paid $35 for that will put the first four or five rounds of 60 year old Turk ammo in a two inch group at 100 yards.


By the time it gets to twenty rounds is is more like 8 inches.
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