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Old 01-11-2007, 09:32 PM   #1
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Before and After Dishwasher Pics

Gentlemen--

I finally had a chance to toss my Greek stock in the dishwasher, and I am very pleased with the results.

Stock in Cosmoline
[img]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r179/Eight_Ring/Stock/A1CosmoSmall.jpg[/img]

Stock Degreased with Paint Thinner
[img]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r179/Eight_Ring/Stock/A1PRESmallPost.jpg[/img]

Stock After Dishwasher
[img]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r179/Eight_Ring/Stock/PostDishwasherSmall1.jpg[/img]

The pictures pretty much speak for themselves--see the big pics if you have any doubts--but I should add a couple notes inre: the process. I opted NOT to use cascade/calgon--I just used liquid Dawn. I filled both the soap cups up--and (shortly after turning on the machine) discovered that I had used WAY too much--the soap was mounding up in there. Oh well, lesson learned. You could probably get away with 1/4 of what I used.

I inspected the stock after the first 1/3 of the drying cycle--my goal was not to completely remove ALL the patina--I just didn't want the stock to look like it had been dragged a couple miles behind a truck. At 1/3 through the dry cycle the wood was damp, almost dry to the touch--and after looking it over I decided that the level of patina that remained was exactly what I was looking for, so I took it out of the dishwasher & am letting it air dry the rest of the way.

I had prepped the stock before putting it in the dishwasher--maybe you don't have to, but I did. I brushed paint thinner on with a disposable brush and wiped the wood clean with cotton rags.

I covered the <serif> P with a little round patch of duct tape, and pressed it on good. It stayed perfectly dry in the dishwasher. I wanted to preserve the initials carved in the stock and the hashmarks--and they survived the process just fine without protection.

I was told that the handguards are fairly vulnerable to warpage, so I had prepped the upper with a zip-tie snugged tight around the groove the band sets in, and on the lower I left the metal liner in place for support, and pulled the front handguard ferrule about 2/3 of the way off the handguard--enough to let the water get at the wood underneath, but also lend some support against warping/distortion. The exposed wood under the ferrule swelled up nice and tight--I'll need to work it back on with a mallet--note: before the washing it had come off easy in my fingers.

The existing cracks in the handguards began to seperate a little in the dishwasher, and when I brought them out into the cold of the garage (no idea why) they really started to seperate dramatically--I'm talking within a couple minutes--and that was all to the good, because I had my little bottle of Gorilla Glue all set and went straight to work smearing glue in the cracks. According to the directions you are supposed to damp the wood up a bit--but the handguards had just come out of the dishwasher & were already a bit damp so I filled the cracks with glue and then worked them gently together with a couple C-clamps. I wiped the excess gorilla glue off with paint thinner--not the seam, just the surrounding area. I've used Titebond carpenters wood glue on other projects and liked it very much, but I figured I'd give the gorilla glue a try. I hear it's good strong stuff--and after looking at all the cracks in the handguards I figured they were going to need all the help they could get.

Last note: the many, many dents and dings steamed out beautifully--even the nastiest ones. I had paid extra special attention to the dents--they are low spots and I noticed that a lot of cosmoline had accumulated in them as I wiped down the stock--after the general degreasing I made sure to work the cosmoline out of the dents with a toothbrush and paint thinner, blotting up the dissolved cosmoline with a clean cotton rag--I figured the more exposed/open the wood the better a chance the water had to swell it--and I'd say it worked. I am quite pleased with the results.

So anyhow--that's about it. I'd rate the dishwasher method an A for my particular (no cartouche)stock--though you might consider doing the upper/lower handguards by hand if they had as many cracks as mine did. All told though, mine needed glueing anyhow, and I wanted to glue clean wood.

Thanks for reading.

--David

Big Pic Links/ 56k warning:

Stock in Cosmoline
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r179 ... 1Cosmo.jpg

Stock Degreased with Paint Thinner
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r179 ... /A1PRE.jpg

Stock After Dishwasher
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r179 ... washer.jpg

Massive post-DW pic
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r179 ... PostDW.jpg

Overall Patina Huge pic
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r179 ... lenght.jpg
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Old 01-12-2007, 12:32 AM   #2
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David ,
Yep, I once tried to use regular dish-washing liquid in the machine too. Oh the humanity! Soap suds were oozing out on all sides of the dishwasher door. What a mess. I then read the instructions that you never.....ever.... use any detergent not specifically rated for machine use. Live and learn.

Your results are about what I would expect. I use Cascade detergent and the full cycle just like I do for dishes. Of all the stocks I have done (couple dozen) I have had only one front handguard that wanted to spread open a bit as it dried. I just ran it through another cycle to get it nice and pliable again but this time I placed an undersized block in the opening and wrapped it up tight with some cotton string until it dried. No more problems.

You were wise to preclean excessive cosmoline from the stock. I didn't on my first stocks and it left a rather nasty bath tub ring in the machine.

Some of my before and after shots of USGI field grade stocks:
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v36/Oryguner/Garands/BeforeMaytag.jpg[/img]
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v36/Oryguner/Garands/AfterMaytag.jpg[/img]
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Old 01-12-2007, 03:55 PM   #3
 
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Before and After Dishwasher Pic's

I Have a WW.2 dated garand that the stock was really black and greasy. I ran it through the dishwasher. took it out aftere a little bit better than half way I didn't want the steam to rais all the marks and dings out. I let it dry about a week Put about four coats of BLO on it it turned out very well.
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Old 01-13-2007, 05:01 PM   #4
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Sweet Stocks

Oryguner--

Man those are some sweet looking stocks. & I don't know what it is with me & birch, but my heart leapt a little when I saw that one.

And as for using Dawn--understand that I downplayed the extent of the catastropy...what can I say....I'm proud.

When I saw the soap suds coming out from underneath the dishwasher I thought for sure I'd been Punked.

Looking back/lessons learned--I think if I had it to do all over again (besides the choice/volume of soap) I'd probably re-examine my own dogma about never touching the lock-up areas. The trigger-guard lock-up area returned about 80% +/-, even though I gave it short schrift--I'd probably go after all the lockup areas more aggressively with steel wool & paint thinner to degrease and open up the wood.

Thanks for posting, Gentlemen.

--David
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Old 01-13-2007, 08:25 PM   #5
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Eight and OXY....

Great work....

You are, however, braver than me... I never used any of the drying cycle. I was always afraid the wood would crak or split.

I usually just wash it and let it sit for a few days or a week.

Sometimes, I bypass the washer and just use hot water and 409....

Great wook... keep it up!!

Gerry
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Old 01-14-2007, 09:20 AM   #6
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Eight_Ring,
Birch has exactly the opposite effect on me, walnut is what blows my skirt up. The stock in the photo still looks exactly like that as I have not come across a birch rear handguard to complete the set.

OnTargetFL,
I understand your concerns and believe me, I had my doubts about the process the first time I tried it. My work as a cabinetmaker told me everything about it was just....well....wrong. A couple of dozen stocks later and my worries are gone. One day, I may have one blow up on me but so far no complaints.
I think the drying cycle only aids in raising the dents and removes the moisture from deeper in the stock quicker rather than letting it "soak" for several day or a week. IMHO There are electronic devices that will measure the moisture contend of wood. It might be interesting to see the results on stocks processed differently.

A few pics of my favorite success story of a nicely figured SA/NFR.
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v36/Oryguner/Garands/SA6.jpg[/img]
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v36/Oryguner/Garands/SA6a.jpg[/img]
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v36/Oryguner/Garands/SA5.jpg[/img]
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v36/Oryguner/Garands/SA5a.jpg[/img]
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Old 01-14-2007, 02:06 PM   #7
 
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WOW ... those are awesome!

If I tried that, I'd probably end-up divorced.
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Old 01-14-2007, 02:29 PM   #8
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Shhhhhh! Be vewwy, vewwy, quiet.......................Do it when she isn't home!



Of course, I can say that.............SWMBO doesn't live here.
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Old 01-14-2007, 06:55 PM   #9
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Oryguner, do you hit the dents with steam before you put it in the dishwasher? I always do, just to make sure they raise, but my son did not and some of his dents were still deep enough to warrant extensive sanding.

My wife has a steam generator for doing clothing, stripping wallpaper, etc. It puts out a steady stream of steam out the nozzle and does wonders before the "Whirlpool Thrill Ride"!

Good work, and beautiful grain on that piece!

PS. I've never had any residue left in my dishwasher. Some dishwashers work better than others. Mine is actually a high end Amana, not a Whirlpool. My sons dishwasher doesn't even clean his dishes very well so I do his stocks for him. His wife is glad, mine is sad!
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Old 01-14-2007, 10:00 PM   #10
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Nicely Making Way

Gentlemen--

Ah, My--another stock utterly savaged by the dishwasher.
Truly we are mindless brutes.
[img]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r179/Eight_Ring/Stockworksmall.jpg[/img]
Big Pic Link
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r179 ... ckwork.jpg

Seriously, though--it's been a good couple days at the workbench--pretty satisfying. I hadn't intended to take it all the way down with the refinish. The original intention was to preserve some patina--but that simply wasn't workable, I previewed it with a paint-thinner soaked rag, and the stock had deeply embedded grease, bruises and other black marks, & all told it just kinda looked like a**. I couldn't justify wasting the figuring, & had to make a coupla tough compromises (I.N. and his hashmarks got tossed under the bus) a bit disappointed about that, but all told I'm plugging at it & nicely making way.

[img]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r179/Eight_Ring/ShapingUpSmallPost.jpg[/img]

Big Pic Link
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r179 ... pingUp.jpg


[img]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r179/Eight_Ring/Bsmall.jpg[/img]
Big Link
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r179 ... Ring/B.jpg

[img]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r179/Eight_Ring/A1HeelworkSmall.jpg[/img]
Big Pic Link
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r179 ... elwork.jpg

The stock has some very nice figuring--it won't be perfect, but hey--I started deep in the crapper & I think I've given it what I can.

OryGuner--Nice work--excellent salvage/beautiful restoration on the walnut. I had no idea that you were a woodworking Pro--give me a shout (as your time permits) inre: how to deal with the muddy-looking pistol grip (I started a thread, looking for input). The figuring is astounding--there are these dramatic convergences, and I've been tweaking it slow, really listening to what the wood is telling me as I work it, good learning curve--but I'm at loose ends when it comes to the pistol grip--I know it can look gorgeous, but how? Any tips, let me know.

Also--JAS tossed me some fine pointers inre: shaping handguards & they served me quite well this afternoon--looks topping, all factors considered--not as good as his, the b***ard, but hey--I'm a first-timer and the front HG looked like the "after" shot of Humptey Dumptey. I ought to do an ad for Gorilla Glue--Greek Tested Tough.

Anyhow--thanks for posting & commenting, fellows--good stuff.

More Pics post-stain, if you're interested.

--David
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Old 01-14-2007, 10:50 PM   #11
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David,
Most of my experience is in building/shaping wood rather than finishing so I am still learning by my mistakes. Your birch is looking very good, but I unfortunately have only worked with one birch stock and I wasn't entirely happy with the results. Birch just isn't one of my favorite woods and will yield blotchy results with oil based finishes (like Min-Wax). JAS recently posted pics of his excellent work with alcohol based stain and wipe-on poly used on a birch stock and I intend to follow his lead on my next birch attempt. The muddy areas of "end grain" you describe will drink up stain and finish like a sponge and go darker than the rest of the wood. There are "wood bleaches" available but I am not familiar with their use.

support_six,
I spot steam with an iron and wet T-shirt after the dishwasher has done it's best. I also have a steam generator and have been wondering what could be done with that kind of focused power but I haven't tried it as yet.
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Old 01-15-2007, 11:29 PM   #12
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You might be interested in reply @ Surplusrifle

Oryguner et al:

A fellow has replied to my sister post over @ Surplus rifle--VERY interesting ideas about closing up endgrain.

Navigate to Surplusrifle.com>Garand>M1>Refinishing Advice/Problem Areas--page 1, can't miss it.

I also posted my own wingnut work-around. I'm going to give it a try tomorrow & see what comes of it.

Any comments/critiques, do post back here--I'd be interested in your thoughts.

Thanks, as always, for the input.

--David
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Old 01-18-2007, 01:27 AM   #13
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Update Stain/bizarre happenings/Looks smoking

Gentlemen--

I stained the stock late last night--two coats, six or eight hours apart.

I was working out in the garage, and it was semi-cold out there, probably in the high 40's/low 50's, but the stain was penetrating just fine. When I was done, it looked totally smoking--I stood there and ogled it for like half an hour after I was done, just hardly able to believe how nice it looked.

Sedona Red--whoda thunk.

But this afternoon around 2:00pm I figured, hey, why not put the stock out in the sun to dry a bit. Might speed things along.

So I set it out on the porch where I do my photography, propped it in broad full sunlight, and headed back into the kitchen to get a drink. Come back out, drink in hand--and WTF is going on with my stock?

Weeping2small
[img]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r179/Eight_Ring/Weeping2Small.jpg[/img]

At first I thought that I was imagining it, but sure enough, the stock began to weep stain--it began in tiny little beads, and the beads kept growing until they were droplet-sized (!). I was absolutely perplexed. Something to do with an abrupt temprature differential moving from the cold of the garage & into the sunlight.


[img]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r179/Eight_Ring/1SWeepingForearmSmall.jpg[/img]

Picture removed by moderator due to being oversized. Please read for picture posting policies and assistance.



Picture removed by moderator due to being oversized. Please read for picture posting policies and assistance.


Picture removed by moderator due to being oversized. Please read for picture posting policies and assistance.


[img]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r179/Eight_Ring/3SWeepingFHGSmall.jpg[/img]

Picture removed by moderator due to being oversized. Please read for picture posting policies and assistance.



Have you ever seen anything like that? I've never seen stain act like that in my life.

Wasn't exactly sure what to do about it--but then I figured hey, chill, roll with it. I pulled up in the sun and as the stain wept out of the stock I just buffed it out along the grain with a clean cotton rag--and the results were phenomenal. The stain leaching out of the stock was thick and oily, it smoothed beautifully, and it dried down quick.

I posted earlier asking about how to get the gold that I KNEW was in the stock to rise up out of it before hitting it with tung--but man--the problem solved itself--as I buffed in the oily stain the gold figuring and flecks just began to rise up out of the red and come shining through. All I could do was grin.

The stock kept weeping stain for about an hour and a half--and I'd alternate between the handguards and the stock, setting them aside, turning them into the sun--and I have no idea what was going on there, but I absolutely love the results.

Here is the gold that I was looking for--

[img]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r179/Eight_Ring/4SGoldFlecksSMALL.jpg[/img]
Picture removed by moderator due to being oversized. Please read for picture posting policies and assistance.



Picture removed by moderator due to being oversized. Please read for picture posting policies and assistance.


And I had also posted inre: how to avoid getting that blotchiness on the pistol grip. I finally (I think) figured out a workaround--really burnish the wood with 600/1500--sand until you start to see little brown dots. Keep going for a little more, and stop when the grain starts to re-emerge--and at that point the pores of the end-grain are so tightly closed that they fend off stain.

[img]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r179/Eight_Ring/5SFruitsofBurnishingSmall.jpg[/img]

Picture removed by moderator due to being oversized. Please read for picture posting policies and assistance.

[img]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r179/Eight_Ring/6FiguringSmall.jpg[/img]

Picture removed by moderator due to being oversized. Please read for picture posting policies and assistance.



I dunno. It works for me.


--David
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Old 01-18-2007, 07:08 AM   #14
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Dunno either David,
I'm sure some of the gurus will be along soon, to confirm or deny, but that sure looks like cosomline seeping out of the stock under the stain.
Look up the Easy Bake Oven threads on http://www.surplusrifle.com
And I'd say that looks just like what Jamie and the boys show oozing out of their re-claimed, greasy old, milsurps.

But, with that said, that stock sure looks purdy brother...!
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Old 01-18-2007, 10:21 AM   #15
 
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If not cosmo, then I'd say tung or BLO.
Better it weep now, then in mid-summer at the range.
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Old 01-19-2007, 02:05 AM   #16
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Baffling

RmrDaddy/Fogtripper--

I dunno--it doesn't add up--but the best way to test the theory (here I go again) would be to toss the FHG in the oven for half an hour--if the FHG starts weeping cosmiline, there's the answer--but there are contraindications. It was only 60 degrees out--summer in AZ, yeah maybe Cosmoline would start running--but at 60 degrees? I also sanded the heck out of this stock, chasing grease spots--and wiped it down with paint thinner to look for shadowing--there was no sign of grease.

My theory has to do with the rapid expansion of the pores. I stained in a cold garage--left it in the garage overnight, maybe it was 40 degrees in ther when I fetched the stock--but I would have expected the pores of the wood to have been shut closed by the cold, and when they hit the sunlight it would've started to drink in the stain.

I dunno--it's bizarro.

On a tangential note--I had asked if anybody had ever experimented with temperature when they were staining--does hot stain (hot as, say, a cup of coffee) penetrate faster/better on a dense wood like say birch? I'd be interested in finding out at some point.

Anyway--tomorrow is the paycheck--I'm going to hit it with 2 coats of Tung, then hustle up some beeswax & make some of that Blo/turp/beeswax paste.

I'll post pix of the finished stock.

Needless to say I'm stoked.

Thanks for posting.

& Tinpig--I'll check out that wood conditioner--it definitely seems like the ticket for a birch stock, which tends to blotch.

--David
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Old 01-28-2007, 10:26 PM   #17
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Updated pics/Meet "Sedona Red"/ PG 1

If you're following this thread, updated pics here:

http://battlerifles.ambackforum.com/vie ... hp?t=45346

--David
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Old 01-29-2007, 03:46 AM   #18
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Eight_Ring, good thing you didn't live in "Blackfoot", Idaho, or "Yellowknife", Alaska, and if you ever decide to change the color, you could move to "Brownsville", Texas!

I kind of like the color. It would look good with a very dark gray park, like that from Springfield Armory, Inc.
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Old 01-29-2007, 05:41 PM   #19
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David,
The rifle is looking good buddy!

On the staining topic...
I've been refinishing a few stocks myself, (keep your collective pants on, the photos will be posted soon, sheesh), and it's a lil chilly here in NJ. My unheated cinderblock basement is cooler than 40 degrees bub, that's fo sho.....
One product that I should have purchased is one of the Chestnut Ridge stains... But, you all can tell me when I post up the snapshots...

Stay Tuned....
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Old 01-29-2007, 05:52 PM   #20
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rmrdaddy,
Winter is a great time to turn a corner of that basement into your own personal, heated, air conditioned, dehumidified man cave. The wife gets the rest of the house, but this little corner is mine!

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/JimScharf/Dscf1772.jpg[/img]

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/JimScharf/Dscf1776.jpg[/img]
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