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Rifle suggests for JC Garand MAtches please

2K views 18 replies 10 participants last post by  Cornbread2 
#1 ·
I am looking at the Fulton 1.5 moa rifle for the matches. does anyone have any experience with the rifle or are there other suggestions to keep within the $1600 price range of this rifle? should I even consider something like this for the matches? I have a nice M1 from the CMP but want to keep it more as a collector piece with occasional shooting.

thanks in advance
 
#4 ·
Fulton's webpage currently lists a service grade and their Peerless grade.

The Service-Grade is an as-issued grade M1 with a 2.5MOA guarantee.

The Peerless Grade has NM sights and Trigger-job plus Bedding and a less than 1.5 MOA Guarantee. This rifle is illegal for JCG matches.
 
#6 ·
Retmsgt. said:
Fulton's webpage currently lists a service grade and their Peerless grade.

The Service-Grade is an as-issued grade M1 with a 2.5MOA guarantee.

The Peerless Grade has NM sights and Trigger-job plus Bedding and a less than 1.5 MOA Guarantee. This rifle is illegal for JCG matches.
Weird. I see 3 grades: Service, Competition, and Peerless.

Service is 2.5 MOA, Competition is 1.5 MOA, and Peerless is under 1 MOA according to Fulton.

I have a rifle in Dean's hands right now. I sent him a 2 million SA for a package rebuild deal. He also sells rifles, but he doesn't make accuracy guarantees. You should give him a ring to see what he can do for you.

There's also National Match Armory, but their rifles cost far more than $1600.
 
#8 ·
Okay, my bad. didn't notice the Blurb on the Competition-Grade. However, under the Comp.Grade please note item #4(Fourth dot down) where it says NM Trigger-job. That makes ity illegal for JCG. Only Fulton's Service-Grade is JCG-legal.
 
#9 ·
A national match trigger job is simply tuning up the trigger and does not include any special non-service issue parts. As long as the trigger breaks at over 4.5 pounds it will be legal for JCG matches. The rifle must be assembled completely from service issue parts or reproductions of service issue parts. This is why a $400.00 Kreiger hand lappped G.I. contour 4 groove barrel is legal, but a Barnett medium or heavy weight 6 groove barrel is not. The Kreiger is machined to G.I. specs, but is machined as closely as possible.
A good JCG match rifle needs a good barrel, good fitting stock, and all of the other parts fitted so they work with each other, not against each other. The barrel is important because CMP match ammo as it is issued at the national matches has boat tail bullets, as opposed to the flat based bullets used in most M2 ball. Boat tail bullets are very unforgiving of anything less than a perfect muzzle crown. A good fitting stock is important because years of working with the M1 have shown that there are areas that need to be snug, areas that need to be tight, and areas that need to be loose for best accuracy.
My advise for a best JCG match rifle is to either buy outright or send your own M1 to Dean Dillabaugh at Dean's Gun Restorations. His web site is http://www.dgrguns.com and he knows how to build an accurate JCG legal M1.
 
#10 ·
No. No NM parts at all.

Tamara A Limestahl
Competitions & Match Coordinator
CMP North @ Camp Perry
(419) 635-2141, Ext 1132
tlimestahl@odcmp.com
competitions@odcmp.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Waits, Dave (GE Trans) [mailto:dave.waits@ae.ge.com]
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 11:50 AM
To: competitions@odcmp.com
Subject:

Is a National Match trigger job legal for JCG Matches?

Is this good enough JAS? In a phone conversation with Tamara, she stated they felt a trigger job was a NM item and not 'As-Issued'.
Dave
 
#11 ·
Retmsgt,

Not to argue here... but this seems to directly contradict every CMP Match Director I've talked to so far, as well as all the guys who go to Perry for the JCG each year, and their understanding FROM THE PERRY MATCH DIRECTORS.....

It seems that a trigger job is OK for JCG as is tightening up the gas cylinder splines.... since there are no "NM" parts involved, only tightening up and honing of the stock items.

I'm open to enlightenment here by anyone who truly does know the "Final Word" from the CMP, but if what this lady sent you is indeed the "Final Word", then I know a LOT of guys who've been to Perry the last few years, and are going again this year, with rifles that are out of spec.

Is Gary Anderson still "The Man" at CMP??? Maybe he should be the one asked.... or at least whoever is in that spot now if he's not.

Just my thoughts,
Swampy

Garands forever
 
#12 ·
Swampy, Don't know if he's still 'Primo'. Sent the E-mail then followed with a phone call. According to her, it's considered a NM item. The Trigger-Group, in NM form, isn't 'As-Issued' as I understand it. Basically, if the rifle didn't leave the factory with it it's not as-issued.

Personally, I don't see a problem with the Mod as,like JAS said, you're not using 'special parts'. I mean,you can use Deans super-tight stocksets and match-grade standard-contour barrels.
 
#13 ·
A NM trigger job is not the same as having NM parts on the rifle.

A NM trigger job uses NO special NM parts. It only involves carefull fitting and stoning of GI rack rifle parts.

There is nothing in the CMP rules that says you can't have a good creep free two stage trigger on your Garand match rifle.
 
#14 ·
I guess somebody better read the rule book!

RIFLE INSPECTIONS. All rifles used in the Garand Match must be "as issued" U. S. military service rifles that comply with CMP Rule 6.2.4. At the conclusion of each relay, a minimum of three rifles will be selected through a random draw for inspection and trigger weighing. Prior to match day, competitors may bring their rifles to the CMP Armorer Van at the rear of Young Range to have triggers weighed and rifles inspected for compliance with match rules. The CMP will have a limited number of standard M1 parts that it can exchange for non-complying parts (NM parts, glass bedded stocks). Exchanged parts can be returned after the match. Anyone with questions about whether a rifle they have is legal should first check CMP Rule 6.2.4 or contact CMP Competitions.

If you look at general rule 6.1 it says that the trigger pull must not be less then 4.5 lbs. I could not drag and copy it or I would have ,go to the CMP site and read it yourself.

With that said I can see how the rules for the JCG could be interpeted differently by Mrs. Limestahl and others. I guess it just depends on who is doing the actual inspection.
 
#15 ·
If the part is not not NM marked and is GI it'd be tough to claim it's NM. If I put graphite grease on the sear surfaces would that be considered a NM mod since it will reduce the trigger pull?

Either Tamara is mistaken or stretching the meaning of NM or CMP has a new interpretation. :?: :?:

There's no NM trigger parts that I'm aware of, so the way I've always read the rules it's fine as long as it's 4.5 lbs or more. If you noticably altered the configuration of the hammer or trigger surfaces you'd have a problem.

It'd be pretty tough to prove a trigger job. Now glass bedding and other NM mods is a whole different ballgame.
 
#16 ·
If a trigger job was an arsenal modification, then it would be legal. I have a stock that was bedded at the arsenal to tighten up the trigger draw after the stock had compressed. Legal. Stoning trigger parts is not part of any arsenal proceedure, so I would say it's not legal (and not in the spirit of the match).

A trigger ground is thin ice depending on the match director. I've never had a trigger weighed, but I've never shot at Perry or a sanctioned CMP JCG Match. IMO, the best you can do is to swap hammers and triggers to find a combo that gives a good trigger action. That is how I would enforce the rule.

Ty
 
#17 ·
The stock mods you mention have been much discussed and are not allowed for JCG matches. This has been a point of contention with CMP buyers who received modified stocks from CMP (often on a Dane return) but CMP won't allow them to be used in a JCG match! :? A bit ironic to sell someone a rifle for markmanship training purposes then tell them it can't be used in a marksmanship event. The usual given reason/excuse is that it'd open the doors to people modifiying their stocks ala NM type stuff.

You may get by with a modiified stock at local event but it won't fly at Camp Perry.

Some of the rules are a bit wacky, ie. NM marked op rods are not JCG legal but they really do nothing to enhance the rifle's accuracy.
Krieger match barrels certainly are not original issue parts but they're allowed because the barrels' external contours look the same as USGI.

Go figure. :shocked:
 
#18 ·
my prediction for the JCG Match winner at Perry...

He or She will not be shooting the most accurate rifle there...
Likely to be a seasoned NRA High Master shooter/Distinguished Rifleman, hard holder....
For example, last years winner, Antonio Samper, holds CMP Distinguished badge number 804....
I didn't go back further, but this mirrors what I have seen at all the local JCG matches...
The point is, it's practice, experience, knowledge, that wins any match, not the equipment. I have the upmost respect for these indiviuals, and know the time and persistence it takes to be where they are in the sport...I'm still trying, so join me....
 
#19 ·
Since the matches are shot at 200 yards the condition of your rifle is not as important as if you were shooting across the course.

A rifle and ammo combo that can bearly hold the black at 600 can still sometimes hold the X ring at 200.

Any Garand with a decent bore and a good tight stock that is correctly fitted is capable of winning the national Garand match if YOU are.
 
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