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Old 10-30-2004, 04:27 AM   #1
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How accurate is your carbine?

Last time I shot mine off the bench, I seem to recall the groups running right at an inch or a hair under at 25 yards--4 MOA. I gather that that's about par for the course. I'm under the impression that an M1 (stock/GI) that will shoot into the 2-3 MOA range is a pretty darn good one, and anything under 5 or 6 MOA is "acceptable." The thing is basically a 100-yard antipersonnel gun, right?

Are my standards and expectations in this area too low, or just about right? How does everyone else's carbines shoot?
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Old 10-30-2004, 06:45 AM   #2
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Snake,
Couple of things to keep in mind when trying to tweek for accuracy. Assuming quality ammo and a barrel that is not shot out and that includes worn crown from cleaning with jointed rods, consider the following.
1. Stock to receiver/barrel fit should be tight.
2. Barrel band should be snug on the barrel.
3. loose trigger housings bother me but do not affect accuracy at
least at the 100yd targets.
4. Handguard needs to be snug, not flopping when you grasp it.

When you place the carbine in the stock, there should be no side to side movement of the receiver in the stock.
Make sure the recoil lug screw is tight to start with. Not gorilla tight , but down snug. Note the orientation of the screw slot so if it loosens , you will notice it. The front band screw again should be snug, not screwed down all the way. If group is opened up, try turning the band screw 1/2 turn at the time to see if groups will shrink. Lastly, when targeting , grip the carbine tightly with both hands. I just say this as last week I watched a shooter stringing shots up and down with a carbine. He had a relaxed, almost open hand under the forearm. when I mentioned this to him , he tightened up the hand on the forearm, and his vertical groups were cut in half. Rocket science !!!! Good luck.
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Old 10-30-2004, 09:32 AM   #3
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I have 5 Carbines... ( 1 IJ I built, and 2 built on SA Inc receivers, 1 IBM and one Inland) they all will hold the 9 ring on a SR target at 200yds prone with either my loads or GI ball.. This target was shot from the bench at 100yds rapid fire. 100 rnds were fired.. SA Inc receiver, Bud Evers SA '52 barrel.

[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid67/pac3ddc7095b2c03d9317fffdf7e26349/fbdb30a9.jpg[/img]
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Old 10-30-2004, 09:50 AM   #4
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So what's the diameter of that 9 ring?

--Snake, still lookin' for a clue....
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Old 10-30-2004, 10:11 AM   #5
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The 9 ring on the above target at 100yds is 5" and on a SR target at 200yds is 13"
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Old 10-30-2004, 12:42 PM   #6
 
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My two cents...

You really can't guesstimate 100-yard accuracy by making holes at 25 yards. Especially with a relatively fat, slow round like the .30 carbine.

For example, a 9mm carbine may group fine at a 25-yard pistol target but be all over the paper at 100 yards (personal experience).

Find a range where you can gun for a true NRA military target at 100 yards, then see how she (and you) performs.

With my IAI Carbine, I can keep most (not all!) of 'em in the black at 100 yards. The standard 100 yard bullseye is about six inches across (9 and 10 rings are black).

Good shooting.
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Old 10-30-2004, 02:30 PM   #7
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So far it looks like 4-5 MOA is right in the ballpark, then.
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Old 10-30-2004, 02:45 PM   #8
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Snake45, you are correct when you state the M1 Carbine was an anti-personnel weapon for up to 150 yards. Hitting a man-sized target in center of mass was the objective, not bench rest target shooting. Get a copy of FM-23-7, available online all the time under $10, as it has a huge section on zeroing and shooting the M1 Carbine, excellent info to improve groups and shooting in general. Also note that the action in a Carbine should be supported completely by the recoil plate, and not touching the wood anywhere. This is when Tailgunners tweaking suggestions will work, for minute adjustments. Check out the manual, it improved my shooting with the Carbine 100% after using some of their suggestions.
 
Old 10-30-2004, 06:17 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wayneCP01
Hitting a man-sized target in center of mass was the objective, not bench rest target shooting.
+1 on that, Wayne! 4-5 MOA is fine with me; that's good enough to hit a beer can at 50 yards or protect my homestead at any reasonable range. If I need MOA, I've got ARs and other stuff for that.

For practice, I mainly shoot the ERMA EM-1 .22. There's a pic of it in the pic post thread--I have it in an A1 stock at the moment, just for a change, but I actually prefer the standard wood stock on it. I'll prolly put that back on for next year's shooting. That thing will shoot 1" @ 50 with the iron sights and Walmart bulk ammo--can't ask for much better than that just for fun! This season I did a lot of 25 yard offhand shooting with it and turned in a number of 1" groups with it that way, too--even some a bit smaller than an inch. The trigger on it's very light but mushy--maybe 2-3 pounds but with quite a bit of movement on the way. One of my 10/22's triggers feels more like a GI carbine's.
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Old 10-30-2004, 06:21 PM   #10
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I shoot PPC and we also shoot a PPC rifle class.. I usually go up against AR-15 Carbines and such with Holographic sights... I manage to beat them all the time with my Carbines.. only dropping 3 points(597 29X) in the process has been my best score so far...
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Old 10-30-2004, 07:20 PM   #11
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I figure a decent gun should get you 1.5 moa to 1 moa at 100 yards and just double that at 200 meters, with decent ammunition.

I mean, I was able to hit a one liter water filled pop jug at 200 meters pretty close to center with my old carbine, but I am pretty well used to shooting various guns, even pistols at that same old spot.

I figure you got some good ammunition, a bore with minimal wear and decent crown/muzzle, I just wouldn't understand why anybody couldn't get 2 moa at 200 meters, cause I at least proved back year ago I could get on target even at 300 meters with a 9 mm camp carbine with a good scope attached.

I hit a stationary clay at 200 meters pretty much centered with my .357 magnum four inch barreled 7 shot Taurus revolver with adjustable sights, jacketed hollowpoints from winchester.
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Old 10-30-2004, 07:28 PM   #12
 
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A 1-liter soda bottle is about 11 inches high and 3 inches wide.
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Old 10-31-2004, 03:32 AM   #13
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First off, we are talking USGI iron sights, not scopes Bud, so accuracy can and will be way different. Also, the M1 carbine is strange in that the action should be completely free-floating, held up by just the recoil plate for the best accuracy. Not all of them come that way, especially if many parts have been changed along the way by non-armorers. To buy one and have it shoot that well right off without tweaking is unusual. Again, the military was looking to hit center of mass of a man-sized target at 150 yards, and anything better than that was a bonus. Unknown to many, the front sights were actually filed down during test-firing for accuracy, and if it is replaced, accuracy will go out the window unless it's resized again, or you are very lucky and hit it right.
My gauge for accuracy is clay pigeons at 200 yards. If I can hit them consistently, then the rifle is good enough for me! I DO have a Remington that is 1 MOA at 300 yards, but I have over 100 hours into that rifle and alot of accessories. I wouldn't expect a Carbine to ever be able to duplicate that, or any other rifle I own for that matter!
 
Old 10-31-2004, 03:43 AM   #14
 
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It's essentially a pistol caliber round working in a long barrel - not exactly designed for tack driving - though my 6/44 National Postal Meter is even more accurate than I had hoped for...
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Old 10-31-2004, 07:42 AM   #15
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I love shooting the carbine, I carried one for real in Berlin, S/E Asia, and several times elsewhere in a 24 year military career. I carry either an M-1 carbine backed by a Brit Jungle carbine in the truck.
My shooter (I have 5) will hit the steel plate every time at 200 meters.

Now for the ammo. With military ball I tend to get a 4 inch group at 200 meters. With handloads, 15 grains of 296 driving a Speer 110 soft point it narrows to a tight 2 inch group, and it is tight. With Federal premium soft point it is at least a 2 inch group. If I were you all and you didn't reload I would use the Federal load for self defense. Think of it as a long barreled 357 mag in soft point.
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Old 10-31-2004, 04:16 PM   #16
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Pretty good comparison varoadking, although I consider it a "Super magnum" handgun round, leaving the barrel at 1800 to 2000 fps, or a "tweener", between a high power rifle round and a magnum handgun round. Many newer collectors/shooters don't know that the military came up with the .30 Carbine round when considering a "light rifle" before they had a rifle to shoot it, and included this info to prospective firearms designers. Winchester came in late, by invitation as the military wasn't happy with the initial submissions (they were busy with other Ordnance work at the time), and used an existing rifle combined with David Williams "short stroke" design to come up with the M1 Carbine. This was before WWII, so there wasn't any critical need at the time, that came later. When used as designed, 25 to 200 yards, I find it to be an excellent round, much better than any handgun round I've shot, and fairly accurate for a military design as that isn't their highest priority. That's why I'm looking at a commercial clone, to hot rod into a home defense weapon, which I believe it will fulfill very well. It works fine on rattlesnakes as I found out, much better than my wife's .380 which just pissed him off! I literally cut him into three pieces with the Carbine (he was threatening my wifes turkey, or I would have left him alone), after 8 rounds of .380 he came after me!
Thanks for the loading info threefeathers, that's the kind of info we really enjoy, and can now try! Next time, I grab the shotgun first when confronting a rattler, couldn't get the safe open quickly enough for the last one. It's in the gun cabinet now, not the safe.
 
Old 10-31-2004, 05:32 PM   #17
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Accuracy

Snake,
Thats a real good fist size group Highpower shot. The pics speaks for itself. Went to the range yesterday to zero the SA 53 barrel I got off the EPAY week before last. The 167xxx Inland was shot out, it had allready been replaced once as evident by the barrel date much later than the 42 manufactor receiver. The guy next to me was watching curiously as I "tweaked" the buffer and band screw until the carbine settled into the desired fist size 100yd group, in the center of the target. Unholstering his G.I. carbine, h e began shooting , looking a bit puzzled as the rounds were way off where he last had it zero'd?? On about the 6th or 7th round the handguard came loose and popped out into the bench. As he looked around I allready had the screwdriver headed his way. Back in action minutes later with a properly tensioned barrel band, the carbine returned close to zero!! 4 to 5 MOA from realistic positions with 100% reliability is all I need in a carbine.
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Old 10-31-2004, 05:39 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wayneCP01
Also note that the action in a Carbine should be supported completely by the recoil plate, and not touching the wood anywhere.
That's good to know. Does this include the wood by the barrel band? If so, how do you keep the barrel from touching the wood there?
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Old 10-31-2004, 05:49 PM   #19
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The only method I have used to raise the action in the stock, is to replace the recoil plate until I have one that gets it up high enough. Then, by tightening the band, you can pull it down to zero. I've never tried shimming as it didn't seem like a permanent fix, and the recoil would make retaining zero nearly impossible even though it's low on a Carbine. See pages 125-129 in TM9-1276/TO 39A-5AD-2 for some very good info about the recoil plate/fit of action and possible solutions.
 
Old 11-01-2004, 08:29 AM   #20
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I can't complain about accuracy from either of my carbines. The Iver isn't as accurate as my Inland. I'm convinced my Inland may be magical...hahaha. I can tell it was made to do violence. everything just seems to work with it. it seems to be everyone I go shooting with's favorite gun. Never had a problem with it...other than that the place I bought it from didn't have a magazine for it! they told me mags were a dime a dozen. more like 12 for $144...($12+ a piece when you can find them) that aside, no problems. it shoots GREAT (the inland) so long as I do my part. and using good ammo doesn't hurt. Winchesters seem to be a good load...
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