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-   -   VIDEO on Verifying Genuine M1A1 Carbines (https://gunhub.com/showthread.php?t=65466)

shep854 02-10-2018 04:54 PM

VIDEO on Verifying Genuine M1A1 Carbines
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx-8QgkbIiU&t=243s

shep854 02-10-2018 04:55 PM

I thought that any carbine with a 'para' stock would have been considered an 'A1' model. According to Ian, they were very specific.

Snake45 02-10-2018 06:45 PM

Your video link doesn't work for me.

All I know is the A1s were all made by Inland in a particular date/SN range. But the SNs aren't known specifically, as evidently "plain" carbines and A1s were run at the same time in this range.

Javlin 02-10-2018 07:58 PM

The casting number was an enlightenment I usually looked at the rivets and proof marks.

Skeptic49 02-11-2018 04:49 AM

It's a great series and he is always willing to correct any problems.

Geoff
Who notes it's a great gig for a young bloke.

shep854 02-11-2018 10:37 AM

I would like a repro for my Rock-Ola, just to find out how it shoots for me if nothing else. I once had a folder stock, but the carbine was stolen before I could shoot it. The carbine was recovered, but returned with the original stock which was taken in the haul. I hope it works well for the cop who took it... :grumble:

Snake45 02-11-2018 11:30 AM

Finally was able to see the video, and link to the auction.

Estimated to go for $1600-$2500? That would be a steal. I turned down $1600 for my stock alone about ten years ago.

shep854 02-11-2018 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snake45 (Post 595234)
Finally was able to see the video, and link to the auction.

Estimated to go for $1600-$2500? That would be a steal. I turned down $1600 for my stock alone about ten years ago.

Wow.

stand watie 02-11-2018 11:39 AM

To All,

As M1A1 carbines were assembled from new/used carbine parts in depots all over CONUS & OCONUS areas too, WHAT constitutes an "original" in this case??
(SERIOUS question, btw.)

For example, RRAD assembled MANY such carbines from their parts bins in the Korean War era. = SOME I was told went straight to RoK.

yours, sw

CaptainGyro 02-11-2018 02:00 PM

With a nod to wartime exigencies, I have always felt the pistol grip looks crude, as if they just adopted the same joinery you'd use to attach a table leg.

It looks so...Russian.

shep854 02-11-2018 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainGyro (Post 595258)
With a nod to wartime exigencies, I have always felt the pistol grip looks crude, as if they just adopted the same joinery you'd use to attach a table leg.

It looks so...Russian.

Good enough... IIRC, the pistol grip on my repro stock was comfortable and nicely hand-filling.

Javlin 02-11-2018 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainGyro (Post 595258)
With a nod to wartime exigencies, I have always felt the pistol grip looks crude, as if they just adopted the same joinery you'd use to attach a table leg.

It looks so...Russian.

It feels good Cap but I agree with the video the carbine shoots better in a full stock.I have a good/nice repo stock which I would feel good with out to 50yds maybe a little more weras the F/stock I am comfortable 100-150yds.

GunGeek 02-13-2018 07:35 AM

“Original” M1 Carbines have always been a bit of a joke to me. A REAL “Original” WW II M1 Carbine is an exceptionally rare thing; they are guns that somehow missed upgrade. And honestly, there weren’t many in US storage that missed out. So most “original” M1’s are re-imports. So when I see an “original” M1 Carbine, I know there’s a 99.9% chance it’s a forced matching, returned to original condition rifle.

I have seen a grand total of ONE M1 Carbine that I could say I know 100% for sure it was in as issued condition, and was never changed. When I pulled it from the crate of 6,000 M1 Carbines imported from Israel, it was in the wax wrapper… for some reason, my boss wouldn’t let me buy that one.

shep854 02-13-2018 08:42 AM

GunGeek, you shouldn’t have shown it to him first...’Loose Lips Lose Deals’?

stand watie 02-13-2018 07:49 PM

GunGeek,

I know of FOUR "absolutely new" carbines that were never fired & won't be, as they are in:
1. The Ordanance Museum,
2. The USAIS collection,
3. The USSW Museum at Ft Bragg
and
4. The Smithsonian Firearms Collection.

Fwiw, the USAMPS Museum does NOT have a new M1 Carbine. = Ours is an "unfired after depot maintenance" RRAD rebuild. = BEST LOOKING stock that I've ever seen on a US military rifle, too.
(The stock has more stripes & waves than the average tiger.)

Inasmuch as you're our resident "carbine guy", what do you consider as "original" in a paratrooper carbine??
(When I was a "wet behind the ears kid", Dick MacWright, our next door neighbor who was then a foreman at RRAD, told my dad that they had "boxes full" of NEW carbine receivers that were available to replace cracked/damaged parts. = "Dick" had several "lunchbox" rifles, too.)

yours, sw

GunGeek 02-14-2018 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stand watie (Post 595593)
Inasmuch as you're our resident "carbine guy", what do you consider as "original" in a paratrooper carbine??
(When I was a "wet behind the ears kid", Dick MacWright, our next door neighbor, told my dad that they had "boxes full" of NEW carbine receivers that were available to replace cracked/damaged parts. = "Dick" had several "lunchbox" rifles, too.)

yours, sw

SW,

On this forum, there are REAL Carbine guys who know their M1 Carbines much better than I. I'm not a big collector, I have just had a love affair with the little rifle since the first time I ever laid eyes on one...It was the end of The Bridges at Toko-Ri

http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/3/...Toko-ri001.jpg

As a little kid, I was a BIG fan of Mickey Rooney and as soon as I saw the little Carbine in Rooney's hands, I just knew I had to have one. And when I finally got one, boy did I ever get one.

My first gunsmiting job was working for Pacific International / Armex Internationial, back in the '80's. We were the "Century Arms" of the 1980's. It was there that I got my Carbine. We imported 6,000 from Israel, and 7,000 from China. Mine came from the stack of Israeli carbines

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...dium/65696.jpg
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...dium/65697.jpg
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...dium/65698.jpg

1942 Inland, with matching Inland logo trigger housing. The rest of the rifle is a mix of parts like most Carbines. Back then I had access to a nearly unlimited supply of parts, so I could have "force matched" it, but decided against it. I did remove the M2 parts though...boss wouldn't let me have it in that configuration:)

The stock is serial numbered to the rifle (perhaps something the Israeli's did?), but it's a late style M2 stock. I found a matching handguard. Metal finish is all original, but I did re-fresh the wood.

Anyhow, I digress...

I have put eyes on over 11,000 M1 Carbines and while I'm far from an expert, I did manage to learn a thing or two in that job.

What is "correct" for an M1A1? Correct can be anything with 100% GI parts. Even non-Inland rifles. The military used what they had, and didn't give a crap about the silly things collectors obsess over.

But "original" would of course be an early configuration Inland in a real GI stock. Now that original Inland would likely have a number of subcontractor parts (I don't remember which off the top of my head). But again, if you find one like that, someone force matched it at some point. And there's nothing wrong with that, but I just wish collectors would call it what it is.

What I will say is this...M1 Carbines with all the right parts are exceedingly rare. Not because these parts broke and were replaced (although that did happen). But because when they were rebuilt, parts were thrown into bins and there was very little attention paid to keeping the parts that were on the gun for that particular gun. US parts interchangeability was much better than most other countries; which is why we didn't serial match each part.

So to my eye at least, a GI Carbine in a GI A1 stock is "correct" in most ways. But most collectors wouldn't agree with me...especially those who own the "as issued" M1 Carbines. They will swear up and down that their "all matching" M1 carbine truly is an as issued carbine, and really made it through all those decades without ever being taken apart by an armorer or upgraded by an armorer.

shep854 02-14-2018 08:43 AM

As long as the parts are GI, and the gun wasn't 'Bubba'd', I don't have a qualm.
The FIRST carbine I owned was a Rock-Ola receiver and barrel, returned from ROK. It shot way left (I thought it was because of a bent barrel, but recently read that non-concentric bores were somewhat common. It did zero, but the sight was waay over). I was able to swap for a sweet Austrian return because it was a Rock-Ola receiver and Inland barrel, and the owner wanted a complete Rock-Ola.

GunGeek 02-14-2018 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shep854 (Post 595737)
As long as the parts are GI, and the gun wasn't 'Bubba'd', I don't have a qualm.
The FIRST carbine I owned was a Rock-Ola receiver and barrel, returned from ROK. It shot way left (I thought it was because of a bent barrel, but recently read that non-concentric bores were somewhat common. It did zero, but the sight was waay over). I was able to swap for a sweet Austrian return because it was a Rock-Ola receiver and Inland barrel, and the owner wanted a complete Rock-Ola.

The issue is usually a chamber that is not concentric to the bore, but there could have been a few other issues that could cause the problem.

shep854 02-14-2018 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GunGeek (Post 595754)
The issue is usually a chamber that is not concentric to the bore, but there could have been a few other issues that could cause the problem.

Ah. Thanks. Was the precise cause and number ever determined? This was also mentioned as a reason for the carbine's poor 'stopping power'--unexplained misses.

stand watie 02-14-2018 12:36 PM

To All,

The ONLY carbine that I'd go out of my way to have was the "plain Jane" M1 IBM carbine that my uncle brought home from the South Pacific.
(My uncle said that he actually bought the carbine, "- - - - - because I was issued a .38 revolver & I couldn't hit a __________ thing with it. So I bought me a carbine & some bullets off a soldier, who had picked up an extra one.")

Fwiw, my uncle was the Acting COB, USS CHAMPION (AM-314) during most of the ship's WWII service.
(While I know LITTLE about his WWII service, he was awarded 3 stars for his PH medal during the war, though like most GIs he said little about his service, so he must have seen considerable actual combat action.)

yours, sw


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