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Old 11-23-2006, 08:51 PM   #1
 
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"All-correct carbines"

this is a very nice article I found for the carbine collector. "All-Correct" restorations of carbines are rampant. It is hard for me to believe that all these "as-issued" carbines are suddenly appearing on the auction sites.

http://www.brucecanfield.com/cc-article.html
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Old 11-24-2006, 12:46 AM   #2
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it's not just on auction sites, that sucker in gullible folks .........if anyone believes that those "all correct" CMP garands are for real and not pieced together, I have a bridge in new york city I am willing to sell them.....real cheap.
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Old 11-24-2006, 06:16 AM   #3
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I can only guess where all that profound information came from.
 
 
Old 11-24-2006, 07:25 AM   #4
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Hey slow fire, bitter much? Poor baby.

I bet I have looked at more of them than you have. 5 trips to the south store with 45 corrects in the rack each time, and I inspected every single one multiple times.

Some few had obviously mis-matched parts. Most were corrects because they had beat wood, but otherwise looked to be original with matching wear patterns (what little wear there was). A few more A few more were very very nice indeed - good wood with a few dings that would steam out, original parts, virtually no finish wear and barrels that gaged brand new. These should have been collector grades, and these are the ones that went home with me.

All of the corrects I bought are as nice or nicer than the collectors I bought via "luck of the draw". Interestingly, both the corrects and th collectors were all packed with grease, making it doubtful that they had not been pieced together rifles. Did the CMP swap small parts to make some of the correct? Of this I have no doubt, but to call them pieced together rifles is just wrong. I'll pass on your bridge though. Thanks anyways.
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Old 11-24-2006, 10:25 AM   #5
 
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I have always considered Canfield to be a good source of information. Nothing in that article is new to me, but I am sure others may find it educational.

I have picked up many carbines at gun shows that are "all correct" with exactly the same park finish on all parts, wrong bolt, etc....but all the markings are correct.

I don't mind paying for matching parts but original unaltered carbines are hard to come by and are easily misrepresented to a new collector. And everyone on this forum knows how easy it is to work on carbines and swap parts around. It is one thing to do this for fun and hunt down parts on ebay or gunbroker, but it is another thing to do it to increase ones investment out of proportion to the value of the individual parts. I think one collector here said it best to me a while ago...the carbine is worth the sum of its parts....this is especially true for a new collector who may not know or trust the seller of an "unaltered" carbine.
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Old 11-24-2006, 11:02 AM   #6
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Well, I pretty much agree that there are a lot of restorations being listed on GB and AA as original. The tips Canfield listed in his article are useful, but are fairly basic.

Oh, and I had a few typos in my last post. The text ...both the corrects and th collectors were all packed with grease, making it doubtful that they had not been pieced together rifles... should read ...both the corrects and the collectors were all packed with grease, making it doubtful that they are pieced together rifles.... Yeah, I r dum. :P
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Old 11-24-2006, 11:44 AM   #7
 
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As I hoped to make clear...I did not post that for you JP (nothing new there for you ), but for others who might find that an interesting page to read. I found it interesting, so I thought I would post the link.



There was a post here recently that I poked my nose in and told a forum member that his stock was not "correct" because I could see type 3 band wear above his type 1 band. Changing parts on carbines to make them "better" as collectables as opposed to shooters means that a collector needs to be very knowledgeable before he buys. Canfield's article makes this point very nicely.

Unless you are very knowledgeable and have handled a lot of carbines (both unaltered, rearsenalled, and downright faked) you should still use the some of the parts method to compute price these days...that is what I will do with carbines for the forseeable future.
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Old 11-24-2006, 12:36 PM   #8
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All information is most welcomed. It is for years of research, documentions, experience, and observations to make the speculations and concurrences, of what is and is not. Keep in mind, and I have said this for eons...

1. Never say never
2. Never did that
3. Never used them
4. Never made them
5. Never came with this finish or that finish
6. Never marked them this or that way
 
Old 11-24-2006, 01:14 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quagmire
Hey slow fire, bitter much? Poor baby.

no, not bitter at all........if you are a happy clam that got took, then that is all that matters

Quote:
I'll pass on your bridge though. Thanks anyways.
you sure? I will even print up a certificate for you.

Gentlemen; Enough!!! Lets keep this disagreement in a polite, civil manner. Marine1 (Moderator)
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Old 11-24-2006, 01:15 PM   #10
 
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Paper work

Were would you get a all correct carbine anyway was it taken off the back of a truck a presentation piece or very few from the DMC, CMP and all but one would have paper work with them. With all of these people putting carbines together with the correct parts it would be hard to sell one to me with out provanonce or paper work. There has to be so few that did not see a rebuild and get swapped parts that most people will never see a correct carbine.

Emmett
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Old 11-24-2006, 03:56 PM   #11
 
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"Correct" and "original" confusion abounds.

I've been collecting carbines for a VERY short time, < 2 years, but it seems to me that people are mixing up correct with original. A "correct" carbine might not have even ONE "original " part except for the receiver. Every other part would only have to be ww2 and "correct" for that particular manufacturer and time frame according to established references.

Please correct me if this understanding is wrong.
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Old 11-24-2006, 04:15 PM   #12
 
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Collector Grade

CMP use Collector Grade being all correct original parts as they came from the manufacture.


Emmett


Some of the parts on the M1 Garand were mixed manufacture at the time they came from the factory. I have read that there were more mixing of parts on the Carbine!
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Old 11-24-2006, 05:59 PM   #13
 
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chevy.

this is correct...and here in lies the problem. Let's say you are a "smart" re-assembler. Who will be able to tell years from now whether the carbine is an "as-issued" carbine or not.

Carbines fetch high prices for as near "as-issued" as possible.

you don't see too many guys on AA or GB saying...oh ya, and the flip, that was a $5 fake to make it look like ww2.

I have no problem with making a carbine look right...that is a fun thing to do...just don't pass it off as such...but if I sell it, and another guy sells it...soon, the part may be advertised as the real deal.

My point exactly....where are all these "correct " carbines coming from? A lot of folks are restoring them to all correct parts...even going so far as bluing bolts. Now if all carbines were the same price, who cares...but they are not.

look at GB right now and try to spot the put togethers. Fun to do, and a little sad, because you know someone is going to the cleaners.

Also go to numrich gunparts where you can buy ordnance stamps. The article by canfield makes a great point...don't buy a sanded stock, period. But...can you always tell?

i have learned enough, so that if I had the money, and was scummy enough, I could buy lots of carbines and make them "right" and turn a profit.

I'd rather buy a decent shooter grade mixed bag for 600 than chance an all correct M1A1 for 4 grand.

Still interesting read on his site. Hope you enjoyed it.
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Old 11-24-2006, 07:01 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audie
chevy.


Also go to numrich gunparts where you can buy ordnance stamps.
you don't even have to do that......send a stock to this guy

http://www.trfindley.com/pgstkrest.html

and he'll put the "correct" stamps on it for less then buying one of those stamps from numrich.
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Old 11-24-2006, 07:06 PM   #15
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Quote:

Gentlemen; Enough!!! Lets keep this disagreement in a polite, civil manner. Marine1 (Moderator)
it is polite and civil. a bit of tit for tat, but nothing outrageous.
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Old 11-24-2006, 07:40 PM   #16
 
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SF says it all...don't trust anything with carbines...I collect 1911s, have a couple of garands, and am starting to collect Winnie M12s...and the one thing I have found out for certain, carbines are the EASIEST to fake.

it is a tribute to the design...all parts from the different makers are interchangeable...this makes a fertile ground for the fakers...beware!!!

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Old 11-24-2006, 07:47 PM   #17
 
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Excellent link SF....seeing those stamps piled up like that says 1000 words!!! :P
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Old 11-25-2006, 09:04 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slow fire
Quote:

Gentlemen; Enough!!! Lets keep this disagreement in a polite, civil manner. Marine1 (Moderator)
it is polite and civil. a bit of tit for tat, but nothing outrageous.
Since you wish to obviously challenge the Moderatring staff authority, slow fire...If you wish to carry this any further, maybe you would like to become a member of the Los Desaparecidos society? I said...ENOUGH!
 
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