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Old 08-10-2020, 04:04 PM   #1
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FN 509 Tactical

Guys I'm most likely going to buy this FN 509 tomorrow what are your thoughts on it if you have had any experience with shooting one of them? My entire life I only shot Glocks and S&W's

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Old 08-10-2020, 06:07 PM   #2
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Based upon recent experiments with optics on handguns, you can save yourself a lot of $$ by skipping the optic. Get a slide that can accept one if you want, but skip the optic.

The guys who use optical sights are the living examples of the slogan: "amateurs practice until they do something right. Professionals practice until they can't do it wrong." Optics depend upon your putting the optical sight in exactly the correct place to be able to see the dot and the target. On a rifle, the stock makes sure your eye is in the right place. With a handgun, it's trained muscle memory.

It's entirely possible for you to be able to use the iron sights and the target without the dot being visible. And very possible you'll do so up close and personal. So, unless you commit to extensive and continual practice, you're paying big bucks for a capability you have limited use for.

Yeah, the DOD made a handgun optic part of the M18 package. But, I doubt everyone who gets issued an M18 is also going to get the optic. Those will go to the special ops folks.
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Old 08-12-2020, 02:53 PM   #3
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If there is one category of firearm that is saturated with high quality choices it's polymer-framed 9mm handguns. There are so many decent options in this niche for under $600 it's hard to justify something hovering around the four-figure neighborhood. Of the dozens of good offerings from Smith & Wesson, Springfield Armory, Glock, Walther, H&K, Ruger, Sig, Canik, CZ, Beretta, etc., why on earth would you choose an over-priced FN?

Unless you found one at a significant discount and have test fired it to determine that it's the best of the bunch for your particular needs I'd hold off and do a lot more research.
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Old 08-13-2020, 03:03 PM   #4
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I still ain't sold on an optic for a carry piece.

The optic makes my groups better but it seems to slow me down.
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Old 08-13-2020, 05:48 PM   #5
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Average gun fight is less than 7 yards. Combat shooting you've got cover so a slow, steady sight picture and B.R.A.S.S.

Walt, when do you need optics on a handgun?
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Old 08-13-2020, 06:13 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by csmkersh View Post

Walt, when do you need optics on a handgun?
Possibly only if I had a longer shot to make in a critical situation and didn't have a rifle in my back pocket.

But inside that 21' with a pistola - nope.

Where you been, Top ?
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Old 08-14-2020, 06:37 PM   #7
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Walt:

I guess like most folks, I've been sitting in front of a TV and eating too much. Brought so enchaladas home today but can't stand waiting for the Mrs. to decide she's ready to go eat in a restaurant Place called Blanco Café on Fredericksburg Rd here has the best in town, IMO.

Enjoyed the Shenandoah area and the Loray Caverns but doubt I'll ever make it back. Too far for me to drive (according to The Boss) and I hate flying anymore.

Ya'll take care
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Old 08-15-2020, 01:07 AM   #8
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I only have an optic on one handgun, a Canik TP9SFx. It has a Leupold red dot and I use it on steel at 70 yards. With cast bullets I can hit the 14" gong all day long, and a 4" popper about a third of the time.

If nobody's shooting back optics have their place.
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Old 08-15-2020, 06:32 AM   #9
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If nobody's shooting back optics have their place.
Nothing needs to be added.
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Old 08-21-2020, 04:29 PM   #10
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I won't go quite that far. I can see a use in the 20-25 yard area and in Tom Givens private citizen shooting database, the longest shot is 27 yards*. BUT, there's still some serious downsides. Holsters are a problem, especially if you're looking at really decent concealment. The optic also sticks out a bit itself.

Before I had the slide milled I did some work at the more common distances and found the dot an average of 0.02 seconds slower than irons. That's insignificant, and largely because without a lot of practice, there's a tendency for trying for more precision than really necessary. With iron sights available, if the front sights are on target up close, you're good to go. If you have time & need for the dot, that's fine too. Just gotta practice. If you happen to be lurking about in the dark, forget night sights, go for the dot.

All that said, the bucks on the machine work (I was chicken to do it myself) and the sight would buy a lot of ammo/reloading supplies.

* I was doing some practice last year and once, just once, at 27 yards, the pistol gods smiled and I got 2 spine shots with my double tap. Given the recorded times at 27 yards, you have time for the optic, but regardless of which sight system you use, you best have cover and/or an incompetent opponent. Just for the record, up close, I was 0.06 seconds faster with a revolver.

Last edited by William R. Moore; 08-21-2020 at 04:31 PM.
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Old 08-22-2020, 07:27 AM   #11
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Hard to argue necessity of shooting at someone over 25 yds away, unless they are shooting at you.
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Old 08-22-2020, 10:52 PM   #12
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toAll,

Years ago, when I was still on AD, the FBI/USMS did a "joint study" on "bad guy vs. police officer" shooting incidents, about the range where one of both participants hit another person.

The AVERAGE distance from muzzle to target, with bloodshed, was NINE FEET. - Beyond 12 yards, you chances of being hit by a bullet was LESS than 25%.

yours, sw
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Old 08-23-2020, 06:20 AM   #13
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Things have changed since I received my training. Doughboy's FBI data says things have gotten very up close and personal. Think I need to do some training on hip shooting like Jelly Brice and Bill Jordan taught. Almost forgot Sykes and Fairbain. They all saw the elephant more than once.

Last edited by csmkersh; 08-23-2020 at 06:23 AM.
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Old 08-23-2020, 07:00 AM   #14
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Back in the (19)80's I was digging through the Uniform Crime Reports in great detail. The average LE shooting wiggled around a bit in range, but still stayed around 6-7 yards. However, there was another set of stats buried in at least one of those reports. IIRC, the success rates of LEOs was given as 10% at less than the average, break even at the average and 90% at 25 yards. Those are/were nation wide stats and one wonders at the accuracy of the initial reports.

I can certainly understand the bad breath results, the bad guy knew there was going to be shooting, the LEO didn't, and the BG moved first. I can also understand the 25 yard one. Most mopes don't practice and dumb luck can only take you so far.

The most interesting stuff I've found comes out of the NYPD Firearms Discharge Reports, but we don't get the raw data and they don't try to establish average distances in the final report. Many of those are guesses anyway. They do include some thumbnail descriptions of certain incidents. I've read a few that I'd be happy to pick up the bar tab to find out what really went down. There was one about an AD/ND in the back seat of a patrol car that creates some assumptions....................
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Old 08-23-2020, 07:20 AM   #15
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csmkersh,

NO QUESTION but that you are CORRECT. - IMO, one of the problems is that the average members of the police forces do NOT shoot very well in 2020.
The old days that most of our membership remembers, where everyone on the force qualified with their duty weapon quarterly are NO MORE. - Just before I retired in 2006, I was stationed in Baltimore County, MD (CIDC had a small resident agency there.) & I discovered by accident that less than 10% of the BPD & BCSD officers were ACTUALLY qualifying with their assigned handgun & almost nobody was firing with the shotguns that were in each prowl car.

The small percent of actual "qualifiers" were mostly SWAT & other "special purpose unit" personnel. = I found it "interesting" that both departments said that the reason that so few police officers actually qualified each year was: A shortage of training ammunition, range time & available instructors.

So YES, in 2020 things are "up close & personal", as neither the criminals or the cops shoot well.
(A sad situation, imo. = IF civilian police departments cut their expenditures for "sensitivity training", HR compliance & other "not directly relevant" to police tactical subjects, they could afford to learn to shoot their weapons well.)

yours, sw
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Old 08-23-2020, 02:53 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Doughboy View Post
NO QUESTION but that you are CORRECT. - IMO, one of the problems is that the average members of the police forces do NOT shoot very well in 2020.
Last time I shot to qualify for a carry license I was 77 and,for kicks, would up doing some call shot against a 25-30 year old BO agent who wanted to legally carry concealed off duty. The instructor would tell us where he wanted the hits to be, center mass, head, groin, etc. We were shooting as soon as the instructor spoke. He(bangbang)ad. You know the drill. Happy to say I had impressed the BO and may have changed the way he handled stops out in the boonies.

In my 20s, I could hip shoot with a SSA and keep it palm size and within chest area. I'll acknowledge to jpg366 that no one was returning fire.
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Old 08-24-2020, 08:07 AM   #17
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Doughboy, last night I realized your post explained something from back in 2012. The USMS had several guys from their SOG in St Louis at the Patrol Rifle Instructor school. When we were doing sight verification, they were learning hold offs. Seems they zero'd their SBRs (11 inch barrels, usually suppressed) at 7 yards. We were all curious, but all they kept saying was something to the effect that it was their standard practice. No idea what their hold off had to be for 50-100 yards. But, kinda doubt warrant service involves distances like that. Still, warrant service would tend to skew the stats.


Long ago, knew the CFI for the USMS. Someone commented one time they'd never seen him practice from the holster. Reply: "That's 'cause i'm not stupid enough to serve felony warrants with a holstered gun."

Last edited by William R. Moore; 08-24-2020 at 08:11 AM.
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Old 08-24-2020, 02:29 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William R. Moore View Post
Long ago, knew the CFI for the USMS. Someone commented one time they'd never seen him practice from the holster. Reply: "That's 'cause i'm not stupid enough to serve felony warrants with a holstered gun."
Problem is, that tees up an assumption that every fight is going to be on his terms, and prudence demands that you prepare for the possibility of being caught with pants down. Didn't one of the NTI's have a literal "Caught on the Crapper" stage?
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Old 08-26-2020, 07:11 AM   #19
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Grasshopper made the assumption that he never practiced drawing the firearm based upon reported witty repartee.

Frankly, I don't know if he did live fire and the dolt who questioned him never saw it. I never saw it either and can't recall if it was even permitted at that range. He could have done it dry fire at home. However, he also had plenty of opportunity to do so while on other ranges, certainly at Glynco.

In any event, Stan had a long, successful career, retired and went to the Big Range in the Sky from natural causes entirely too soon.

NTI did have some fiendish, if realistic, stages can't recall that particular one. It'd have been R rated at minimum.
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