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Old 10-16-2018, 06:30 PM   #21
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Mas once had a writeup about that, IIRC. Not illegal per se but ill-advised, some CSI wonkery I don't remember the details of and I'm not going to make a mess of by trying to remember. I think he put it in Book of Combat Handgunnery too.
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Old 10-16-2018, 10:03 PM   #22
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To All,

US LAW SHIELD says that there has been NO case, ANYWHERE, of a civil/criminal case that gives us just cause to worry about a civilian licensee using handloads. = It's either a JUSTIFIED SD situation or it's NOT.

Nonetheless, most ANY current factory produced JHP load in .38 Super is fully suitable for SD. = Since I finally retired I've resisted any number of private PP jobs, as I don't need $$$$$ that bad.
(I have considered restarting my old Petroleum Protection Inc. company that patrolled oilfields to watch for hazards/theft/vandalism BUT in the event that it is restarted, I'll not do anything but supervise at my age.)


yours, sw

Last edited by stand watie; 10-16-2018 at 10:15 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 10-16-2018, 10:06 PM   #23
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SW, if I were around your AO and you didn't mind having to train from scratch and whip a portly nigh-40 into shape, I'd sign up to work under ya.
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Old 10-16-2018, 10:13 PM   #24
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Diamondback,

In the event that I do decide to reopen PPI up again, you'll get a phone call. = Before I closed the company & went OCONUS, our patrol officers worked 3x12 hour shifts per week.


yours, sw
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Old 10-16-2018, 10:20 PM   #25
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The other problem is, I have the ball and chain of an invalid parent. I'd need to make some significant mobility upgrades, not to mention getting the Old One moved in with her sister, and they *both* fight me every step of the way about absolutely everything right down to the level of "is the sky blue" so that's a very long, slow, drawn-out chess game. Seriously, if Mt. Rainier decides to take a barf we're cut off from the rest of the world until the bridges are rebuilt and they won't even let me stash ONE CASE of bottled water and some packaged meals...

Ya know how there's always gotta be one or two Reflexive Opposition cases in every family?
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Old 10-17-2018, 06:52 AM   #26
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I carried hand loaded .357s & .38 Specials for years. I finally got tired of hand loading, parked my press and started buying factory for both carry and hunting.

Thanks, stand watie. You provided the info all should know.
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Old 10-17-2018, 07:06 AM   #27
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I think the conversion is doable but haven't tried it personally.

I do question the use of a Super as a PDW because of the lack of effective HP ammo. I haven't paid attention to it lately but unless there has been a change only Winchester has any with the Silvertip.
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Old 10-17-2018, 07:15 AM   #28
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ammoman has both Federal and Winchester JHPs but I have no idea how old it is.


https://www.ammoman.com/38-super?jacket_type=104
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Old 10-17-2018, 08:52 AM   #29
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Charlie Petty; csmkersh,

In 2018, in addition to Winchester, Sig-Sauer, Underwood, Buffalo Bore. Elite Performance. American Eagle, Federal, Wilson Combat & a host of other/smaller "boutique" ammo companies load JHP ammo for .38 Super in "standard velocity", "Plus P" & even "Plus-P-Plus".
(Here in San Antonio, even Wal-Mart has .38 Super Silvertip in stock, at least most of the time, for those of us who don't reload.)

yours, sw

Last edited by stand watie; 10-17-2018 at 08:53 AM. Reason: typos
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Old 10-17-2018, 01:53 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snake45 View Post
If I'm not mistaken, the extractor and ejector cuts would be different in a 9mm/.38S slide vs .45, too, wouldn't they?
The 9mm/.38 Super ejector is wider than that of a .45 so the top part of the ejector cut is wider. One quick pass with a mill changes that, although I had a buddy who tried a Super slide assembly on a .45 frame and had no issues. I wouldn't bet on it myself. The hole for the extractor is the same, the extractor is the part that changes.

At the time Mas published the thing about handloads, about 40% of his cases involved analysis of gunshot residue. The VA State crime lab used the wrong exemplars on a case and decided the shooting didn't take place as the shooter claimed. The conviction got overturned on appeal (Federal explained the differences between the powders in the 2 different lots and why that invalidated the lab tests.) and the shooter was acquitted in a bench trial, but it was still a monumental screw up.

Now, the records of Fedingtonchester are from a disinterested third party and a heck of a lot more detailed than anything we keep. Add to that the facts that exemplar ammo is always factory and the powders we use may have the same name but aren't the same powder and you can get yourself into a jackpot if the magic CSI stuff doesn't agree with your version of events. Also another reason I don't use boutique ammo, Ghu knows what they use for powder and what amount.

Factory ammo is cheaper than a lawyers hourly rate. Yeah, I carry handloads on the farm and if I'm just running to the market/gas station. Given all the surveilance cameras these days I'm kinda hoping distances can be established by other means. Factory if I go further.

Last edited by William R. Moore; 10-17-2018 at 02:12 PM.
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Old 10-17-2018, 02:33 PM   #31
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Thanks for the backup, WRM.
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Old 10-17-2018, 06:26 PM   #32
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It isn't that handloads are illegal, but incase of a civil suit using handloads isn't a good practice. You can bet that the other sides lawyer is going to build a case that your handloads are crafted to increase the lethality over and above factory loads. Since you crafted the load you assume all the responsibility of any factory ammo maker without benefit of corporate protections. Not to mention that by loading your own you have displayed a premediation that can go against you under the Process of a Civil Litigation, which is far different from a Criminal Suit. Almost all agencies & P.D.'s have an approved list of authorized factory ammunition, this practice has been proven to be a "Best Practice" when taken to Civil Litigation. I believe that Massad Ayoob used to expound the virtues of using Factory Ammunition to lessen the liabilities you expose yourself to in a Civil Litigation. But I don't have any specifics at hand.
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Old 10-17-2018, 06:53 PM   #33
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M118LR,

What "Mas" said was true when it concerns POLICE OFFICERS. = As I said, US LAW SHIELD (with which I have coverage in all of the USA) states that there are NO cases anywhere in the USA where civilians were involved in a shooting & where handloads were admitted as evidence & to NOT worry about it.
(Fyi, I'm essentially "suit proof", as I have nothing of any real value to get in a civil case.- Sad but true.)

That said, I carry factory loads because I'm in the habit of doing so, from decades of being a LEO. = I use the fired cases as the basis for range ammo.

That said, once we are settled in Latin America I may well carry handloads, as suing people for ANYTHING is rare down there & imported ammo is $$$$$$$.

yours, sw
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Old 10-17-2018, 07:38 PM   #34
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There may be times when the advice of the insurance company differs from the advice of the legal team.

But none of this is really relative in Latin America is it?
Just watch your six down there, lots of folks that thought they had nothing ended up on the "Rich American Hostage List".

Practice your Deutsch! Keep your powder dry! Memorize different routes to the consulate!
Have a good time.
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Old 10-17-2018, 08:42 PM   #35
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M118LR,

I'm pretty well "dug in" in the nation where we are going, as I trained numerous people, who are NOW senior police commanders & senior civil servants.
(A considerable number still remember my alias: "Commandante Tabasco", as our students thought it was hilarious that I always had a duct-tape wrapped bottle of Tabasco sauce in my field uniform shirt pocket. = Peasant food, i.e., beans, rice & some sort of meat, which is what we ate 99% of the time, there tends to be BLAND to the taste of this TX-raised guy. - NO hot peppers is usual there.)

Out in the "rural area", IF you were smart, you followed my rule in "developing nations": IF it tastes good, do NOT ask what you are eating, as you may NOT think it's quite so good when you find out.
(I can tell you from personal experience that any number of "unusual" reptiles/mammals/creepers are EXCELLENT chow, if properly prepared. = Protein is protein.)

Note: NO matter who prepared it or how it was cooked, I do NOT like monkey, as it's tough, nearly tasteless & stringy. = Boiled combat-boot MAY be BETTER.
(Btw, the main character in THE PATRIOT was correct: Dog is a good meal.)


TABASCO was also my usual radio call-sign on the admin net.
(On the tac nets, a 5-digit number was usual & that sometimes changed 2X daily for security reasons.)

yours, sw
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Old 10-18-2018, 05:02 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stand watie View Post
Out in the "rural area", IF you were smart, you followed my rule in "developing nations": IF it tastes good, do NOT ask what you are eating, as you may NOT think it's quite so good when you find out.
(I can tell you from personal experience that any number of "unusual" reptiles/mammals/creepers are EXCELLENT chow, if properly prepared. = Protein is protein.)
Dog and horse are just different types of protein. As to the Tabasco, it goes on my eggs every morning. With "Mexican" food I usually add salsa verde. Onions/cebolla and cheese/queso also fix many foods.
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Old 10-18-2018, 06:13 AM   #37
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SW, I don't want to beat this to death, but I'm aware of at least one case where civilian handloads were involved. The judge refused to admit the load records into evidence as their accuracy/provenance was at issue. I suspect there are other cases where the issue of who produced the ammo simply didn't come up, at least directly. I do have, somewhere, a list of cases (6?) where various crime labs managed to screw the pooch even involving issue factory loads. I'm simply suggesting it's best to limit your exposure to attack.

I can't recall off the top of my head if the case I cited earlier involved an off duty cop or a private person.
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Old 10-18-2018, 07:55 AM   #38
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William R Moore,

In 3 decades plus of city/county/state/federal LE, I've never even heard of such a case that involved a shooting incident by a civilian against a criminal predator. = Such SD shootings are deemed either JUSTIFIED or NOT JUSTIFIED.

VERY typical of such incidents was the 22YO housewife who was home alone (except for 2 children under 3YO), 4 days ago (just outside of the SA limits, & south of South Flores St) who shot an intruder, who kicked the side door of the home open & paid with his life for his folly.
(Any female regardless of species, when protecting their young, is LIKELY to be a determined opponent.)

BCSD Deputies, who responded to her 911 call, found the deceased had succumbed to one round of #7 1/2 shot to the face/neck, out of the householder's DB 20-gauge "bird gun" fired from less than 10 feet range.
(Also found by the deputies near the deceased's body, according to the official report, was a loaded .22 caliber revolver.)

IF you can cite one or more actual cases that involved civilian shootings & where handloaded ammo was even considered by a judge to be entered into evidence, I would be pleased to read them.

Note: I truly PITY any intruder, who forces his/her way into our home, as I have NO doubt that my beloved Darla will shoot to kill with her Model 7615P carbine in 5.56NATO. = She is DEADLY out beyond 200M with that little carbine.

yours, sw

Last edited by stand watie; 10-18-2018 at 07:58 AM. Reason: addenda/clarity
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Old 10-18-2018, 06:04 PM   #39
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Dependent on the Nation, regimes can change pretty quickly down there. Stick with the Boy Scout Motto: be prepared. As to the "Rural Areas", eat it before it eats you.

About the only meal I had to take a pass on was in Thailand. They serve Monkey/Baboon brains by cutting off the crown of the head, I was urged that it would stop chattering at me by the third or fourth spoonful. Slit the poor critters throat and I'll eat it cooked or raw, but it ain't right in my book to eat it while it's talking to you. JMHO.

About the only callsigns I remember listening for while dozing are Puff or Red Dragon, and they usually came over the "Sky King Net". I don't think I recall anything about Reef Point, Clipper Troop, or any other callsigns that Olie couldn't recall. LOL.
Lot's of reading: https://archive.org/stream/CIADocume...A-217_djvu.txt

The Tabasco Country Store is one of the saved sites on my shopping list. I'm using a Tabasco Tervis Tumbler as we chat. Course a little of the Datil Pepper goes a long way towards Minorcan Cuisine.

Authentic Minorcan Clam Chowder | Authentic Florida

Last edited by M118LR; 10-18-2018 at 06:38 PM. Reason: Unclass CIA Reports.
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Old 03-17-2019, 06:35 AM   #40
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I'm now thinking seriously of building up a .38 Super/9mm gun for myself.

Near as I can tell, if I get a .38 Super slide (and ejector), I should be able to swap in a 9mm barrel and use that in it, too (with suitable magazines, of course).

My current problem seems to be finding a .38 Super slide. Essex isn't in production at the moment. Neither SARCO nor Numrich seems to have any in stock. Any other ideas for a source?
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