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Old 12-17-2010, 01:20 PM   #41
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Re: If you could design your own handgun, what would it...

Update - So go back and take a look at my original post...

Now with that in mind, check this out: http://floridaarms.com/catalog/power-fr ... -p-92.html

Looks like my "dream gun" could become a reality. I've entered into conversations with this company to find out more, and possibly even do a review of their products for my website.
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Old 12-17-2010, 06:12 PM   #42
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Re: If you could design your own handgun, what would it...

Glad to help SW.
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Old 12-18-2010, 01:18 AM   #43
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Re: If you could design your own handgun, what would it...

The last blow back 9x19 from a major manufacturer:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_VP70

A large ungainly pistol, which also had a detachable shoulder stock that gave it select fire. However it used a ringed chamber and a blow past barrel to get the velocity down.

Geoff
Who notes his Kahr is a compact lightweight 9x19 just a bit big for normal pocket wear.
http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-P9-Bla ... Sights.asp
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Old 12-18-2010, 08:46 AM   #44
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Re: If you could design your own handgun, what would it...

Skeptic49,

fwiw, i used to have one of those beasts, when i lived in BRD. - it shot WELL & was considered "the Jeep" of 9mm pistols BUT it was "an oddity" to say the least.

the mag held 18 rounds & it would feed ANYTHING that vaguely resembled a 9x19, including the buzz-gun ammo that the BGS had = that stuff was HOT & would DAMAGE a lot of regular pistols!

yours, sw
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Old 12-18-2010, 12:39 PM   #45
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Re: If you could design your own handgun, what would it...

Aren't the Hi Point pistols blowbacks? I don't have much experience with them, but the 9mm didn't seem to have much recoil.
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Old 12-20-2010, 05:30 AM   #46
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Re: If you could design your own handgun, what would it...

SW - the VP70Z has to be filed under the, "What the hell were you people thinking" category; what a POS. They're HUGE and the trigger is so far beyond SUCK, that the light from suck would still take a million years to reach it.

At one point in the '80's I used to sell class 3 H&K (which is why I've never been big on H&K for all these years, their customer service was deplorable). I actually had to pull that pistol out with a striaght face. Back in the '80's the H&K pistols were typically large and odd. The P7 certainly the most successful, but even the P7 is considered very weird (but at least it works). The P9 was sort of interesting, especially in .45. Not interesting enough to every want to plunk down hard earned cash, or even consider it for a carry piece, but I do have to say one thing...The P9's S H O O T!! Very accurate pistol.

Finally H&K came back closer to conventionality and make some pretty good pistols these days. Still, I find them larger than they need to be, more expensive, and not necessarily better.
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Old 12-20-2010, 07:58 AM   #47
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Re: If you could design your own handgun, what would it...

KevinGibson,

i'd guess that differing opinions is why they started having horse races. - the VP70 shot well but it was BIG/had NO recoil/was ODD to say the least ======> fyi, i won it in a poker game at an O Club in K-town, with 3 dueces & a pair of Jacks (if i remember correctly).

shot it a lot, as i had a HUGE cache of BGS buzz-gun ammo that a friend gave me & i had NOTHING else that i wasn't afraid to shoot that HOT stuff in.= if i remember correctly it was about 1600FPS!
(i certainly wasn't going to even fire ONE round in my Browning HP!)

THEN i met a German lawyer, with more DM than commonsense, at the Ramstein R&G Club & "put it on him" , with about a case of ammo! = BOTH of us were PLEASED that day!

thanks for reminding me of the "fun & games" of that long-ago time!
(remind you sometime to tell you about the cache of MP38, that i "fell heir to" from a retired BRD general.)

yours, sw
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Old 12-20-2010, 07:59 AM   #48
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Re: If you could design your own handgun, what would it...

The VP70Z could be an example of one of two things: taking a concept straight to production without review by knowledgeable persons or taking someones request for a proposal (or something less formal: "What we really need....") straight to production without troop trials. Possibly a wee bit of both.

I do believe that it's intended purpose was as a personal weapon for tank or gun crews and the like should they have to dismount. Still didn't justify the trigger or those shadow box sights. IMHO, it was inadequte to that purpose should that have been it's justification.
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Old 12-20-2010, 08:03 AM   #49
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Re: If you could design your own handgun, what would it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by stand watie
KevinGibson,
(remind you sometime to tell you about the cache of MP38, that i "fell heir to" from a retired BRD general.)

yours, sw
Oh do tell...

I love to hear the exploits of successful gamblers since there has never been a worse gambler than I. And I have multiple witnesses. You can be winning it hand over fist and then I walk up; immediately after that moment, you'd better cut your bets to the minimum beecause you're about to take a beating. None of my friends will even walk into a casino for a meal with me.
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Old 12-20-2010, 08:19 AM   #50
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Re: If you could design your own handgun, what would it...

Kevin Gibson,

UNDERSTOOD! =====> CHUCKLE!
fyi, i've learned (the hard way) NOT to take my lady gambling! = "albatross around the neck" isn't the half of it.

yours, sw
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Old 12-20-2010, 08:24 AM   #51
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Re: If you could design your own handgun, what would it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by William R. Moore
The VP70Z could be an example of one of two things: taking a concept straight to production without review by knowledgeable persons or taking someones request for a proposal (or something less formal: "What we really need....") straight to production without troop trials. Possibly a wee bit of both.

I do believe that it's intended purpose was as a personal weapon for tank or gun crews and the like should they have to dismount. Still didn't justify the trigger or those shadow box sights. IMHO, it was inadequte to that purpose should that have been it's justification.
\
Could be…Europe has been muddling along for some sort of PDW for quite a while now. In the mean time, the Russian’s very successful Suchka (Krink), or just simply an AK with a folding stock has been giving good service for a long time now. You know, in a lot of ways, the Russians have been well ahead of us and the west in general in small arms.

We’ve been kicking around the intermediate assault rifle cartridge for quite a while, and although the idea as a general purpose cartridge is pretty much dead, it’s still getting some talk in special purpose roles.

The US has finally caught onto the DMR concept that the Russians have had since well before WWII. And in that role, the Dragunov has continued to be a very good fit, even though it’s unpopular with American shooters (but still loved by collectors).

The afore mentioned PDW – America had THE PDW in the form of the M1 Carbine and then put it to rest when the M16 came along. Arguably the M16 was close enough in original form to justify abandoning the lil M1. But then we went and turned the M16 into a small caliber M14 in size and weight, and suddenly, we’re shopping for a PDW again. In the mean time, the folding stock AK’74 was pretty darned good, and then along came the Suchka (Krink). In Afghanistan it was universally hated, mostly due to the long range, and just like we did with the Carbine in Korea, they employed it in situations where it just didn’t belong.

Thems Ruskies have some pretty good ideas; very practical.
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Old 12-20-2010, 08:37 AM   #52
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Re: If you could design your own handgun, what would it...

William R Moore; Kevin Gibson,

to WRM: actually the VP70Z was designed for the BGS, but NOT actually issued for "daily service use".
(the HOT STUFF that i had from their stocks was also designed for the border guards, so that their buzzguns/sidearms would shoot the same ammo.)

the Eisenbahn & Schlosser Polizei, the Feldpolizei, the VVK & WVK also had a LOT of them. - BDR fuel-tanker drivers also were issued one with their "on-vehicle tool kit", as the "grease gun" was issued with the vehiculiar tool kits, on US fuel tankers during RVN.
(i've suspected, but do NOT know, that it was a case of : well, we bought a whole bunch of them & somebody has to get "get stuck with" them, so let's dump them on the Feldpolizei/VVK/WVK/rail & locks police/truckers.)

to Kevin: fyi, the US Army has, for at least 3 years, been issuing AKs to "second line troops", "technical service" & CSS soldiers, as we captured MANY tens of thousands of brand new ones when Iraq fell..
(my brother-in-law, a JAGC LTC/0-5, was issued a brand new Polish-made AK, with folding stock & 6 mags, the first week of his second tour to Iraq. = it's "pictured", slung over his back, in several photos that he emailed my kid sister from over there.)

yours, sw
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Old 12-20-2010, 10:58 AM   #53
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Re: If you could design your own handgun, what would it...

Ah-Ha! many thanks. Although I'm not real clear what the BGS would have been doing with them.
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Old 12-20-2010, 01:01 PM   #54
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Re: If you could design your own handgun, what would it...

WRM,

i'm sorry, i thought i was clear. i guess NOT.

the BGS "brass" wanted a pistol that would safely fire the same HOT loads as their subguns, so the VP70Z was born. - but the "rank & file" border guards DISPISED them, so the bureaucrats evidently "pawned them off" on other FRG services.


the sole positive attribute of the VP70Z is that it will safely fire anything that it will chamber!

yours, sw
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Old 12-20-2010, 01:36 PM   #55
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Re: If you could design your own handgun, what would it...

Wasn't the VP70Z originally designed as a military arm, for use with a detachable shoulder stock?

I vaguely recall reading that attaching the shoulder stock somehow enabled FA fire . . . without the big military contracts they were expecting, HK then brought out an SA-only civilian version and sold it here for a while in order to try and recoup some of their development costs . . . .
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Old 12-20-2010, 01:52 PM   #56
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Re: If you could design your own handgun, what would it...

HankB,

as i said earlier, the VP70Z was designed for the BGS as a combination pistol/FA weapon, that would safely shoot the BGS submachinegun ammo, which was UNSAFE in ANY regular pistol.
YES, the VP70Z will fire full-auto with the shoulder stock attached. ===> it's a "climbing fool" & HARD to hit with as a sub-gun!

to my knowledge (i was stationed in BRD for several years as an Army MP & worked with the various German/allied/US police/military agencies along the borders, daily.), the only military units that ever had them were the VVK, the WVK & the feldpolizei.
(the pistols, as i said earlier, were also part of the "on board tool kit" of German army heavy trucks.)

yours, sw
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Old 12-21-2010, 07:12 AM   #57
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Re: If you could design your own handgun, what would it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by stand watie
WRM,
i'm sorry, i thought i was clear. i guess NOT.

the BGS "brass" wanted a pistol that would safely fire the same HOT loads as their subguns, so the VP70Z was born.
I kinda, sorta got that part, I just got thrown by the trigger, sights, select fire shoulder stock and wondered exactly what tactical niche the thing was supposed to fill. I flat couldn't think of one that wasn't filled better by one of the MP5 variants. I'd be surprised if the P9S in 9mm wouldn't handle the subgun load. Might have required a wee bit of fiddling with the roller size or cam angles, but the different breech system could have been popped into the slide in minutes.

I can well understand the urge to ditch the piece.
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Old 12-21-2010, 07:24 AM   #58
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Re: If you could design your own handgun, what would it...

Most every gun maker has their "Ford Edsel"; that seemed like a good idea at the time, but looking back it's clear they should have seen the warning signs. H&K has always been a leading edge company, doing things that most anyone else just isn't doing. And as much as I may dislike how H&K treats their customers, the H&K brand does signify quality. If it says H&K, chances are, the gun works; period.
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Old 12-21-2010, 07:45 AM   #59
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Re: If you could design your own handgun, what would it...

Kevin Gibson; all,

more to the point, H&K is in business to make MONEY. = they were told what was WANTED by "the BGS brass" & they made what "the customer" wanted to buy.

BUT as i said, "the beast" works & works WELL, as it shoots FINE despite its other problems of size, "oddity", "climb rate", etc. ====> i would NOT feel "under-armed" if i had one of those on "that very bad day", when your life is on the line.
(i cannot tell you how many multiple hundreds/thousands rounds got fired up with mine over a 3 year period, but it was a BIG number = FREE ammo by the case/pallet-full is NICE!)

nonetheless, personally on "that bad day" i would PREFER my Sig-Sauer P-6, my "cut-down" 12 guage double & my garand!

MERRY CHRISTMAS to ALL!
yours, sw
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Old 12-21-2010, 11:18 PM   #60
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Re: If you could design your own handgun, what would it...


make it about 3lbs lighter.
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