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Old 07-20-2009, 06:10 AM   #21
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Re: Patent Application of the Week: Modular Lockwork for M1911

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  • Quote:
    Originally Posted by spwenger
    Dieudonné [sic] Saive
Nothing archaic or uncommon about it… Dieudonné Saive was the gentleman's name.

My biggest problem with the P35 was the too-easy ability to reassemble it with the sear lever in backwards.
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Old 07-20-2009, 06:21 AM   #22
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Re: Patent Application of the Week: Modular Lockwork for M1911

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Speir
My biggest problem with the P35 was the too-easy ability to reassemble it with the sear lever in backwards.[/size]
The part in the slide that acts as the gun's de facto "disconnector?" Didn't know that, as I've never had that out. Never had any reason to.

But since it's come up, is that part spring-loaded on a Browning? If it's not now, was it ever spring-loaded? I ask because it's free-floating on my FEG clone, which you'd think might cause problems but never has.
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Old 07-20-2009, 06:43 AM   #23
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Re: Patent Application of the Week: Modular Lockwork for M1911

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Speir
.
.

  • Quote:
    Originally Posted by spwenger
    Dieudonné [sic] Saive
Nothing archaic or uncommon about it… Dieudonné Saive was the gentleman's name.
Yes and it had already been misspelled twice in the thread.
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Old 07-20-2009, 06:58 AM   #24
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Re: Patent Application of the Week: Modular Lockwork for M1911

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Not no mo'! (Purely out of respect to the memory of M. Saive and the forum's vaunted high signal-to-noise ratio.)

One of the things I've always admired about the former "Gun Geek," is that he is educable.
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Old 07-20-2009, 06:59 AM   #25
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Re: Patent Application of the Week: Modular Lockwork for M1911

Quote:
Originally Posted by spwenger
Yes and it had already been misspelled twice in the thread.
My bad, I got lazy. And yes, FN continued to stamp Browning's Patent Depose on Saive's designs long after Browning's passing, including the blowback model mentioned above. Regardless of who held the patents -- and I'm a huge fan of Mr. Brownings -- the gun he patented bears little resemblance to the HP we know.
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Old 07-23-2009, 12:30 PM   #26
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Re: Patent Application of the Week: Modular Lockwork for M1911

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snake45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Speir
My biggest problem with the P35 was the too-easy ability to reassemble it with the sear lever in backwards.[/size]
The part in the slide that acts as the gun's de facto "disconnector?" Didn't know that, as I've never had that out. Never had any reason to.

But since it's come up, is that part spring-loaded on a Browning? If it's not now, was it ever spring-loaded? I ask because it's free-floating on my FEG clone, which you'd think might cause problems but never has.
On my P-35 it is only pinned into the slide, no spring. And yes, it can be put in back'ards! It aint exactly intuitive when putting it back.
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Old 07-23-2009, 08:14 PM   #27
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Re: Patent Application of the Week: Modular Lockwork for M1911

I tried to detail strip the first Hi Power I owned. My thinking was that it was another JMB design and would take down similarly to a 1911.

Holy crap was I surprised. Luckily, a phone call to a friend who was smarter than I yielded decent instructions.

As far as a modular 1911 trigger system, after screwing around with series 80 parts, I am willing to look at it.
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Old 01-24-2020, 09:37 AM   #28
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FWIW: I see that this patent was the basis for Nighthawk Custom's new drop-in M1911 lockwork.
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Old 01-24-2020, 02:57 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by spwenger View Post
Actually, the modular firing group of the BHP is one of the few parts that was not conceived by Dieudonné Saive - it, along with the cam block to replace the swinging link, were the two major design contributions of Browning.
If you break it down by patent holders, JMB invented everything but the magazine and one other piece that I can't remember at the moment. To the best of my knowledge, Saive never filed any patents on the magazine that I'm aware of. Still, Saive gets credit for the HP as he's the one that brought all the patents together, regardless of whom the patent holder actually were.
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Old 01-24-2020, 03:00 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Mushinto View Post
I tried to detail strip the first Hi Power I owned. My thinking was that it was another JMB design and would take down similarly to a 1911.

Holy crap was I surprised. Luckily, a phone call to a friend who was smarter than I yielded decent instructions.

As far as a modular 1911 trigger system, after screwing around with series 80 parts, I am willing to look at it.
There are less parts than the 1911 and it's pretty easy to work on. The fire control group is the bit that gives fits. Takes 11 hands and a virgin sacrifice.

Back when I had to work on 11,000 Hi Power's, I found a large stainless steel "clothes pin" to hold the hammer back while I insert the sear/ejector pin...made life WAY easier.
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Old 01-24-2020, 06:28 PM   #31
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Browning didn't design the Hi Power. He died in November 1926 and the and the Hi Power was released in 1935. It is based on his designs and completed by Dieudonné Saive at Fabrique Nationale (FN) of Herstal, Belgium.
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Old 01-25-2020, 05:23 AM   #32
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There are less parts than the 1911 and it's pretty easy to work on. The fire control group is the bit that gives fits. Takes 11 hands and a virgin sacrifice.
Hah! As stated before, I can do it with three hands and a bench vise!

But while you're on the phone, it it normal for HPs to rattle? Every one I've ever personally handled (which isn't that many, I admit), when dry fired empty, you can watch the right side of the slide rise up a little as you pull the trigger. Of course, with a loaded gun, the top round in the mag spring-loads the underside of the slide and removes this play. I just wonder why they all seem to be so loose.
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Old 01-25-2020, 07:19 AM   #33
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HOLY COW Dean's still with us. Good to hear from you.

If you dry fire most military 1911's, you'll see the slide assembly do some interesting dancing on hammer impact. It's just the tolerances. In the case of the BHP, if stock, it's having to move the sear against the impressive hammer spring tension.
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Old 01-25-2020, 07:54 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by William R. Moore View Post
HOLY COW Dean's still with us. Good to hear from you.

If you dry fire most military 1911's, you'll see the slide assembly do some interesting dancing on hammer impact. It's just the tolerances. In the case of the BHP, if stock, it's having to move the sear against the impressive hammer spring tension.
Check the date on Dean's post.

The sear/hammer spring has nothing to do with the slide moving up as I described, it's being caused by the trigger pressing up on the long lever bar in the slide, and it happens during the take-up phase before the sear starts moving at all.

But you're right about the "impressive hammer spring tension." I replaced the mainspring on mine and immediately got a much better trigger pull. And it's still virtually 100% reliable with .22 LR ammo, which is notoriously more difficult to light off than centerfire. Only reason I can figure for the super-heavy original mainspring is it helps cushion the impact of the beautiful light slide against the beautiful light frame, reducing wear/breakage.

It's been a while, but I seem to recall that the spec weight for the stock HP mainspring is 32#. I think the one I put in was rated 22 or 24#. By comparison, I believe mainspring rating for a GI 1911 is 24#, and "worked" ones commonly have this replaced by something in the 18 or 19# range to improve the trigger, which still works very reliably.

Others might know more, but that's my experience with the things. BTW, my HP now lives its life as a pretty much dedicated .22 plinker/trainer/fun gun, though of course I still have the 9mm top half to convert it back in under a minute.
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Old 01-25-2020, 08:30 AM   #35
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Check the date on Dean's post.
Has KG now claimed the record for "oldest necro-post" on this site? lol
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Old 01-25-2020, 03:19 PM   #36
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Hah! As stated before, I can do it with three hands and a bench vise!

But while you're on the phone, it it normal for HPs to rattle? Every one I've ever personally handled (which isn't that many, I admit), when dry fired empty, you can watch the right side of the slide rise up a little as you pull the trigger. Of course, with a loaded gun, the top round in the mag spring-loads the underside of the slide and removes this play. I just wonder why they all seem to be so loose.
Yeah, that's pretty darned normal. Slide fit on the HP from the factory is pretty generous. Still, most shoot pretty darned well.
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Old 01-25-2020, 03:24 PM   #37
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...Only reason I can figure for the super-heavy original mainspring is it helps cushion the impact of the beautiful light slide against the beautiful light frame, reducing wear/breakage...
It's part of the story of how we ended up with 9mm 124gr NATO.

Following the Suez Crisis, the Brits "liberated" a metric-azz-load of Egyptian 9mm SMG ammo intended for the Port Said SMG. So they wouldn't be fired in their handguns (Beretta 1951's), they used REALLY hard primers (Israeli's would copy this in the '80's). Well, the SAS really liked the barrier penetration of the Egyptian 9mm, and decided they wanted to use what they captured. So in 1961 (IIRC) FN just made the 32lb mainspring standard in the Hi Power.

So the Brit's love of the Egyptian SMG ammo is why we have 9mm NATO today, and the 32lb mainspring in the Hi Power.
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Old 01-25-2020, 03:25 PM   #38
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Has KG now claimed the record for "oldest necro-post" on this site? lol
Hook, Line, and Sinker!!
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Old 01-26-2020, 06:13 AM   #39
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The sear/hammer spring has nothing to do with the slide moving up as I described, it's being caused by the trigger pressing up on the long lever bar in the slide, and it happens during the take-up phase before the sear starts moving at all.

But you're right about the "impressive hammer spring tension."
OK, went downstairs and checked my own BHP. No slide movement either during takeup or actual trigger press. I can generate some slight slide/frame motion by hand without recoil spring pressure on the slide but not with the trigger. I've gotta think that the play you're seeing may be the result of generous tolerances between slide & frame and barrel and locking cam. Possibly issues with the trigger lever and trigger bar.

When I mentioned the hammer spring tension, the other end of the trigger bar has to press down on the sear to release it. The heavier the load on the sear from spring tension, the more likely you are to see the slide move while trying to release it.
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Old 01-26-2020, 07:31 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William R. Moore View Post
When I mentioned the hammer spring tension, the other end of the trigger bar has to press down on the sear to release it. The heavier the load on the sear from spring tension, the more likely you are to see the slide move while trying to release it.
The movement I'm talking about happens when the trigger bar first contacts the sear, LONG before enough pressure has been applied to move the sear at all.
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