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Old 01-05-2006, 06:44 AM   #1
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U.S. agent killed Mexican with "dum-dum" bullet

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Wed 4 Jan 2006 7:41 PM ET
MEXICO CITY, Jan 4 (Reuters) - The U.S. Border Patrol used a "dum-dum" bullet, banned in international war but standard issue for border agents, to kill an 18-year-old undocumented Mexican immigrant whose death last week angered Mexico.

The hollow-point bullets, designed to expand on impact, cause much more tissue damage and bleeding than standard rounds.

A Border Patrol spokesman said on Wednesday the bullet fired into Guillermo Martinez after he crossed the U.S. border near San Diego on Friday was a .40-caliber hollow-point round.

The ammunition is banned in international warfare under a century-old treaty but is standard issue for the Border Patrol and some U.S. police departments.

that thumping sound in the background is me banging my head against my desk
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Old 01-05-2006, 07:06 AM   #2
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1. Does a state of war exist between the US and Mexico?

2. Is the Border Patrol signatory to the Hague Accords of 1907?

If the answer to either question is "no," then what's the problem?
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Old 01-05-2006, 07:42 AM   #3
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Semantics

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we were taught a Dum-Dum is a flat nosed slug which gives it a lot of "Whomp" power.

A Hollow Point is a slug with a hole in the center and possible some striations to improve it expanding when it hits.

But of course a "Dum-Dum" sounds more impressive to anyone uneducated about guns and ammunition, especially journalists.

I think the TV and movie directors take their cues from reading these reports and produce the scenes where the entire building explodes because somebody set off a 5lb block of plastic explosive on the first floor or worse where guns are concerned.

Aren't wad-cutters potentially semi-Dum-Dum's?
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Old 01-05-2006, 07:43 AM   #4
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Reuters is very anti-American. Too bad they don't point out that many Americans are upset about the illegals coming across the border. Or our spineless political leaders who refuse to do something about it.
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Old 01-05-2006, 07:48 AM   #5
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Can't be a Dum-Dum, the Dum-Dum arsenal in India doesn't supply any ammo to us.
Wish we could use this as a de facto declaration of war between Mexico and US! It is past time to sort this mess out!
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Old 01-05-2006, 07:54 AM   #6
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I keep hollowpoints in my .38 Colt Official Police!

If I ever am forced to shoot someone with it, I sure hope he isn't a Mexican!
But I guess I'm ok if I shoot anyone else.....

Seriously, I guess I'll never figure out why some people get so freaked out over some bullet types. Each has it's purpose.
I recall reading a story where a big contention was if NYPD officers should be using hollowpoints....I was thinking YES they're more effective and there's less chance of a through-and-through then hitting an innocent bystander in a crowded city -- but NO the PC whiners felt FMJ was "humane" IN SPITE of it's better propinquity for doing JUST what I was concerned about.....
People.....
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Old 01-05-2006, 08:14 AM   #7
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Quote:
Quote from source:"Mexico this week called for a formal investigation into the shooting,"
Like every other police agency in America, apparently the Border Patrol just blows these things off.

"Fired your weapon today did you?"
"Yeah, the guy was heaving rocks at me."
"Oh well, no problem, here's some more ammo."

The Mexican Government is on to us. They're getting tired of USA officers dragging their citizens across the border, then harming them for no reason.
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Old 01-05-2006, 08:31 AM   #8
 
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WE do not have to drag them across the border. They do it on their own. Then whine that we do not do enough for them. If they get shot .........oh well. If they stayed in mexico they would not have gotten shot. You try what they do in another country and see what happens.
AND do not start with the racist bit as I married a lady from another country(azores) and my step-daughter is married to a mexican.
dum-dum bullets???? A hollow point is not one and it should be used as it is the most effective. Maybe we should give them blanks....so no one gets mad????? I guess you would prefer the border patrol to be the one shot???

END OF RANT
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Old 01-05-2006, 08:42 AM   #9
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The Hague Accords ban the use of "Dum-Dum" bullets by name. They are proscribed for use during wars between signatories, and I don't believe that Mexico is a signatory.

Hollow-point bullets were designed to increase the ability of pistol rounds to be employed without endangering others by over-penetration. They also are more "humane", as they result in a cessation of hostilities with fewer rounds into the body. Less holes, better chance of living was the thought.

I find it somewhat curious that Reuters accuses the Americans of using these terrible rounds when the EU Police forces are also armed with them. Are we to assume then, that the EU hollowpoints are somehow "different" than those of the US?

The majority of this could be avoided by the Mexicans not trying to enter this country illegaly. A push to remove illegal aliens in the United States by denying them any access to welfare/ schools/licenses/bank accounts/insurance/and social programs, and the fining of companies employing them at sufficient levels to be a burden, would go a long ways towards clearing it up.

If we need alien workers, look toward the Guest Worker Programs. I would also reduce Social Programs in the same areas if the eligible participants found the work unsuitable.



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Old 01-05-2006, 08:59 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by divernhunter
WE do not have to drag them across the border. They do it on their own. Then whine that we do not do enough for them. If they get shot .........oh well. If they stayed in mexico they would not have gotten shot. You try what they do in another country and see what happens.
AND do not start with the racist bit as I married a lady from another country(azores) and my step-daughter is married to a mexican.
dum-dum bullets???? A hollow point is not one and it should be used as it is the most effective. Maybe we should give them blanks....so no one gets mad????? I guess you would prefer the border patrol to be the one shot???

END OF RANT
I think that most (if not all) of Kmitch's post was a bit tounge in cheek/sarcastic. I may be wrong, but thats how it appeared to me.

Joe
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Old 01-05-2006, 09:49 AM   #11
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To the extent that it will do any good…

*

The following "feedback" was just sent to Reuters:
Quote:
Re: "U.S. agent killed Mexican with 'dum-dum' bullet"

Demonstrably inaccurate and needlessly inflammatory, and your headline writer clearly has no idea of what a "dum-dum" projective actually is.

It seems that when one gets to a certain stage in their history as has Reuters, credibility and integrity have lost their importance.
At least they didn't cite the "Geneva Convention," as would your garden variety gunstore bozo.

As for the unfortunate Señor Guillermo Martinez, it seems to have been more an issue of education than anything else, and for which we can blame the Mexican Government… the lessons of Budapest October 1956 and Tiananmen Square Spring 1989 seem not to have been taught.

Don't throw rocks at men with guns unless one is in a strategically superior position… like behind a much larger rock.

Of course, the "rock spin" could be a complete fiction, and the BP Agent just went Charlie Askins on the kid.
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Old 01-05-2006, 04:37 PM   #12
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Re: U.S. agent killed Mexican with "dum-dum" bulle

Quote:
Originally Posted by csmkersh
Quote:
Wed 4 Jan 2006 7:41 PM ET
MEXICO CITY, Jan 4 (Reuters)
As soon as I read this this far I knew it would be antigun hysteria. At one time a few years ago I could tell an antigun AP story apart from an antigun Reuters story just by the stylebook rules that governed the terminology.
 
Old 01-07-2006, 10:33 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fargo
Quote:
Originally Posted by divernhunter
WE do not have to drag them across the border. They do it on their own. Then whine that we do not do enough for them.
<snippage>
Maybe we should give them blanks....so no one gets mad????? I guess you would prefer the border patrol to be the one shot???
END OF RANT
I think that most (if not all) of Kmitch's post was a bit tounge in cheek/sarcastic. I may be wrong, but thats how it appeared to me.
Joe


Well at least someone understood it!

And for those among us that take everything literally:
NO I WOULD NOT PREFER THE BORDER PATROL TO BE THE ONE SHOT!!
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Old 01-07-2006, 05:59 PM   #14
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Growing up, a neighbor of mine (who walked back from the Chosin Reservoir) pointed out to me the efficency of using rocks to kill people. Plentiful, don't jam, any size you want, cheap and effective. It took my 14 year old brain a couple of years to figure out where he'd gotten this insight.

Don't throw rocks at folks with guns.
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Old 01-08-2006, 07:37 AM   #15
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Officer here in Tucson years ago shot and killed a MDP who was tossing large rocks in an intersection - ruled justified.
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Old 01-09-2006, 11:41 AM   #16
 
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Not sure where the term "rock" came from. Must have been from the mexican report. We used to use the term "deadly missle" in reports of items being thrown, dropped etc, that could cause death or great bodily harm. BTW, those are terms that justify the use of deadly force.
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Old 01-16-2006, 04:20 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunpacker
Not sure where the term "rock" came from. Must have been from the mexican report. We used to use the term "deadly missle" in reports of items being thrown, dropped etc, that could cause death or great bodily harm. BTW, those are terms that justify the use of deadly force.
Notice how the use of information intended to be perjorative (repeated several times) changes the discourse. However, they fail to disclose the nature of the threat. I think it woud be safe to assume that rocks have killed millions throughout history. In some places, such as the holy land, the commbination of discontent and the easy availiblity of rocks has led to an escalation in rock violence.

Sounds to me like the assailant had twoa cop-killer rocks, but this is difficult to discern from the story. They were certainly intended as assault rocks. It could have been one of them cheap a Saturday Night Special rock. Or one of them silent-but-deadly sniper rocks.

The logical solution is that the US (or states) should enact rock registration, require serial numbers on each rock, generate a ballistic database of rock impact impressions. More importantly, they should ban those rocks which have no legitimate sporting purpose. While rocks have been associated with hunting since pre-history, they are seldom used for contempory hunting, and more often are seen used for street mischief. No one really "needs" to own a rock ....

Also desirable would be some sort of National Coalition to Stop Rock violence, required training prior to allowing anyone to carry a rock, and most importantly, a background check and waiting period for all rock acquisitions. I'm sure the author would agree these measures could reduce the widespread problem of rock violence.

-- cw
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Old 01-21-2006, 12:45 PM   #18
 
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http://www.tucsonweekly.com/gbase/Curre ... id%3A71525

I have also heard more than one recent report of U.S. Border Patrol agents being fired upon by uniformed men coming across the border.
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Old 01-26-2006, 07:42 AM   #19
 
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Dum-Dum Bullets facts: http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=808242

It seems the US never signed the Hague Convention of 1899 where the Dum-Dum bullet is specifically mentioned. The Hague Convention of 1907, which we did sign, just states "In addition to the prohibitions provided by special Conventions, it is especially forbidden -...To employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering."
Actually, an FMJ may cause more suffering that a soft point. A soft point should cause more damage and cause death quicker with less suffering.

Final point is that the Border Patrol is a law enforcement agency not a military agency.
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Old 02-01-2006, 08:48 AM   #20
 
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I've heard "dum-dum" bullets described as all sorts of different things. This is the first time I have ever seen hollowpoints labeled as such.

They must find it difficult to report the everyday mundane stuff without grabbing the thesarus to vamp it up.
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