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Old 09-03-2018, 07:43 PM   #1
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CCW, Blades, the Law & Alcohol

So as CCW I left the 1911 in the truck parked in the garage while pushing the wife in her wheelchair around St. Augustine because I knew that I'd have a Guinness or two before taking her on a cruise with the grandchildren.

But as an Old Frogman the SOG Pentagon was still clipped in the right front billows pocket of my short pants.

Long story short, Senior Citizen pushing his wife in the wheelchair into the parking garage after 2200 hours, easy target for a predator.

Am I really supposed to feel sorry if I jabbed a SOG Pentagon into the punks femoral artery and twisted it a bit on the way out when he decided We were easy targets?

Being Old, I might have been more concerned with getting Grandma into the truck safely than dialing 911. Is a Senior moment allowable, if I forgot to dial 911 after all the commotion? Hope that young man got himself a little treatment.

I think I acted within the spirit of the law, but yet I believe my actions regarding a firearm comply to the letter of the law.

But is the letter of the firearms laws correct?

We are going to skip the common sense fair fight rules, if your a punk stupid enough to tackle a Old Frogman with a knife pushing his spouse in a wheelchair through the parking garage........ Whatever you get ain't what you deserved........ Sorry if you didn't survive to learn from your mistake.

Hope Y'all don't think poorly of me.
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Old 09-03-2018, 08:17 PM   #2
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I'd really like to hear Y'all's opinions.

Should other Senior Citizens, with perhaps a bit less training and experience, be expected to experience situations like this without a firearm?

How are today's senior citizens expected to protect & defend those that are totally dependent on thier aged spouse to be thier first line of defense?

Everyone is going to grow Old God willing, is it time to modify the law to protect the aged?
...............

Awaiting Y'all's response. ????
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Old 09-04-2018, 02:58 AM   #3
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M118LR,

SORRY if this is a bit "off topic" but I see no good reason to start another topic for one comment.

Last week, I went to the Bexar County Tax Office to find out how to register a boat trailer & as usual was carrying my Sig-Sauer P6 concealed.
The guard asked me if I had my LTC on my person & I said, YES & showed it to him.

Then he "had a hissy fit" because I was carrying a pocket knife with a 2 1/4" blade. = Turns out that there is a 2016 county ordinance that specifically prohibits ANY sort of blade in county buildings, even for LTC licensees.
(How STUPID is that??)

yours, sw
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Old 09-04-2018, 03:28 AM   #4
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It's a little difficult to tell from the manner of your prose if you are describing a hypothetical or an actual event. If this scenario played out in actual fact, I would do two things:

1. Lawyer up. It is hard to imagine a parking garage nowadays that does not have security cameras, and those cameras likely recorded your face, your vehicle, and your license plates. You were probably more than justified in taking the action you took to defend your wife and yourself, but that doesn't mean there won't be a rigorous investigation.

2. Stop talking. Posting the details of the incident online provides un-filtered fodder for police and prosecutors. If/when you get a lawyer, make him aware of this post.
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Old 09-04-2018, 06:06 AM   #5
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Dallas newspaper article re: knives dated July 2017.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/texa...daggers-swords

Legal limit used to be 5˝" long.

stand watie, if you know the county ordinance number that bans certain knives I like to know as I don't think counties/cities in Texas have the legal right to regulate weapons.
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Old 09-04-2018, 07:15 AM   #6
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csmkersh,

I don't know the ordinance number but the Supervisor of the BCTACO stated that she knew that it exists AND that she thought it SILLY to tell LTC licensees that they couldn't carry a knife but MAY carry a handgun.

Fyi, Bexar County has done LOTS of other unlawful things like "protecting aliens from ICE", too.

yours, sw
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Old 09-04-2018, 03:29 PM   #7
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My ad blocker won't let me read the link about blades. Virginia has a state law that limits carried blades to 3 ". Not that anyone pays much attention to it unless some LEO needs some leverage. That said, I've gotta go with Gyro.

In many parts of the country, us senior citizens are considered to be wasting governmental resources better spent on other segments of the population. I guess we're supposed to stay calm and bleed out if attacked, just go ahead and die otherwise.

Last edited by William R. Moore; 09-04-2018 at 03:32 PM.
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Old 09-04-2018, 04:16 PM   #8
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In many parts of the country, us senior citizens are considered to be wasting governmental resources better spent on other segments of the population. I guess we're supposed to stay calm and bleed out if attacked, just go ahead and die otherwise.
It is the official if unspoken position of the Democratic Plantation Party that if you're not 1) A member of the nomenclatura/overseer class, 2) Voting Democrat, and/or 3) Paying massive amounts of taxes, you need to just die as soon as possible, preferably one day before you become eligible to draw Social Security. This explains why they want you disarmed, and also why the Government/Deep State/Plantation absolutely had to take over all aspects of your health care.
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Old 09-04-2018, 05:08 PM   #9
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It's a little difficult to tell from the manner of your prose if you are describing a hypothetical or an actual event. If this scenario played out in actual fact, I would do two things:

1. Lawyer up. It is hard to imagine a parking garage nowadays that does not have security cameras, and those cameras likely recorded your face, your vehicle, and your license plates. You were probably more than justified in taking the action you took to defend your wife and yourself, but that doesn't mean there won't be a rigorous investigation.
I guess the parking garage cameras had already been disabled, otherwise the attacker wouldn't have chosen that time & location. Not to mention that none of the security systems ever seem to aid in the apprehension of a criminal, more or less assisting the intended victim.

#2 is sound advice. So we shall use this as a scenario.
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Old 09-05-2018, 04:01 PM   #10
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There are several ways of looking at this.... the Normal Citizen way, and the paranoid way.

The paranoid way says to just leave and don't report it because the Lefty city police and prosecutor will only drag you through Hell trying to convict you of something because you're not one of a protected class.

The Normal Citizen way is to report it to the police, both as a civic and legal mandate and to prevent you from being identified later and charged for not reporting it.

Most cops will tell you that a Normal Citizen will report something like this, and when they don't they get suspicious.
In short, by not reporting it, you turned a "good shoot" (stabbing) into something else.
When you fail to report or alter the scene, a good cop wonders WHY, and that can lead to a "good shoot" becoming a felony charge.

Last, remember something that most criminals and honest people never think of.....there are cell phones and CCTV cameras EVERYWHERE.
There are also witnesses EVERYWHERE.

It's virtually impossible not to be seen or videoed anywhere in a city.
You may not notice the inconspicuous camera down the block or a witness looking out a 5th floor window a block away, but they notice YOU.
Inner city thugs don't talk to the police but not all witnesses are thugs and may report you.

Then, you turned a "good shoot" into something that looks different to the police and they wonder what actually happened and why you fled the scene.
This is like a hit and run.
The kid may have darted out between cars and there was no way you could have avoided it, but by leaving you turned an unfortunate accident into a felony.

The fear is a biased prosecution by a Leftist city legal system or being sued by the family of some goon, so you don't want to report it and take the chance.
This is usually over stated.
If you're a Normal Citizen, have done nothing wrong or to provoke it, and are not abusively violating a weapons law, in almost all cases you'll be in no trouble.

Fail to report an incident, and even if the law gives you a pass, now the victim or family has an advantage in that you broke the law by not reporting.
Any sleazy lawyer will easily be able to convince an inner city jury that you're a racist or bigot and did something wrong because you had something to hide by not reporting it.
Plus, you heartless bigot you, you left a poor person to die unaided.

Sometimes you just have to put your faith in the justice system and justice prevailing.
You will get some hard questioning by the police, but if it's a legit case of defending from an attack, and there's the disparity of force of a young hood almost surely with a record versus an aging man with a handicapped wife, they'll see that and it stops there.

This doesn't mean that there may be a civil case, but if you live in a state with a self defense law that prohibits law suits for self defense, you're clear.
Fail to report the commission of a felony attack and all bets are off.

Bottom line..... No prosecutor is going to bring a case against an older man and handicapped wife for resisting an attack by a person that almost certainly has a criminal record.
He knows he's not going to be able to sell a jury on an elderly couple attacking some innocent victim in an isolated parking garage without provocation.

But if you fled the scene his chances of a conviction go up, and prosecutors are very much stat driven.
They don't like loosing cases because it makes their numbers look bad.

In your case you're well past the "Golden Hour", in which it's okay to leave the scene to find safety, then call the police to report it.
Now you just have to hope there's no camera, cell phone, or witness to come forward.

Last edited by dfariswheel; 09-05-2018 at 04:04 PM.
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Old 09-05-2018, 06:16 PM   #11
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But if you fled the scene his chances of a conviction go up, and prosecutors are very much stat driven.
They don't like loosing cases because it makes their numbers look bad.
And that's the problem with criminal lawyers, prosecutors or defense lawyers. Law and justice do NOT matter; it's the win/loss column that matters.

Years ago I attended a mute court competition. Two teams, prosecutor and defendant. Both have access to all evidence (which seldom happens) and facts of the crime. Both try to win their "case." After lunch the switch sides but same case and evidence. Once again the object is to win. And they operate no differently in the real world.
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Old 09-05-2018, 08:58 PM   #12
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dfariswheel, could you explain what law is been broken when a victim fails to report an attempted (or failed) attack? Or even reports it and refuses to press charges. Do you believe that the perpetrator of the attack is reporting his failure (or part in the attack) to the Police?

The basic premise of this conversation is that consumption of a single beer precludes an authorized Legal CCW from ever being able to claim "a good shoot". No matter how Morally justifiable.

Yet if you are willing to suffer the pain inflicted by the firing pin of a old snub nosed J framed S&W revolver, the blade in your pocket has no alcohol related authorization/restrictions. It may have a size or location restriction, but there isn't a consumption restriction on a knife. Had I expended a single round from a firearm I would be held responsible for any and all effects, including it's final resting place. And not reporting that I had discharged my firearm would be a criminal act. I'm aware of no such reporting & responsibility restrictions when a knife is involved. Not to mention that the only DA's that would attempt to prosecute a feeble senior citizen defending a disabled (female) spouse from a firearm attack initiated by a verial, athletic , young male in his prime; are unemployed. (Rightly so IMHO)
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Old 09-06-2018, 05:24 AM   #13
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Unless M118LR's question is a hypothetical question, that ship has long since has sailed. If the police are or become aware of his actions they will look at them with a jaundiced eye since he "fled."

He also needs to remember that, while Florida has a "stand your ground" law, a number of states do not.

Last edited by csmkersh; 09-06-2018 at 05:47 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 09-06-2018, 03:52 PM   #14
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First, you failed to mention the consumption of alcohol or a gun.
You simply inferred that you stabbed someone in the femoral artery and left them to survive or die.

"dfariswheel, could you explain what law is been broken when a victim fails to report an attempted (or failed) attack?"

You inferred that you stabbed an attempted attacker.
That's a world away from just not reporting an unsuccessful attack where no one was harmed.
You don't have to report an encounter where no one was harmed.

I'm no lawyer but I'd think this would be along the same lines as being involved in a car accident in which you WERE NOT the cause, but you drive off, would be a case of hit and run.
You would not be the person to hit, but you did run. The police would almost certainly arrest you if they found you and charge you with leaving the scene of an accident.

In the case of stabbing someone and walking away, that's a lot more serious then leaving the scene of an accident.
Again, I don't know the applicable laws, but I don't think you'd get a wave off from the authorities.
The fact that you stabbed another human being and just walked away isn't going to look to good.
This would possibly have you charged with depraved indifference or manslaughter of one degree or another if they died.
You are not allowed to deal someone a possibly lethal stab wound and just walk off, even if they were the aggressor.

When you just walk away from something like harming another person, even if they were at fault, the assumption of the police is that you probably did something wrong, which is why you "fled" the scene.
Right or wrong, juries and police very often assume that only bad people use a knife, and only guilty people flee the scene and make no attempt to report it.

Bottom line, if all you had was an encounter in which no one was harmed I don't think there's any legal mandate to report it.
If someone is given a possibly lethal wound and left to possibly die, that's another story.

If this is a hypothetical, it's an interesting discussion.
If you actually stabbed someone who was attacking you and then left the scene you better pray to your gods that there's no camera or witness.
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Old 09-06-2018, 06:24 PM   #15
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Unless M118LR's question is a hypothetical question, that ship has long since has sailed. If the police are or become aware of his actions they will look at them with a jaundiced eye since he "fled."

He also needs to remember that, while Florida has a "stand your ground" law, a number of states do not.
That is an extremely valid point. There is not a single set of rules that cover the use of a firearm across the entire Nation.

Since it's apparent that the aggressor isn't going to report to the Police, than it's solely the responsibility of the intended victim/victims to report the incident? So if neither of the participants report the incident to the Police is it an incident? Now granted, a cadaver would give the Police a reason to search for an incident. (irregardless if it was aggressor or victim) But without either a report or a cadaver, what are the Police going to respond to?

I did mention a couple of guinness (perhaps I should have emphasized alcohol consumption stronger) as cause for leaving the firearm in the truck inside of the parking garage, thus following the letter of the Law pertaining to Firearms CCW.

Now the blade length of the SOG Pentagon is less than the blade length of a standard WALCO restaurant knife, yet I can have several Guinness's and not be arrested for utilizing a WALCO Steak Knife in public. I know it's the law, but is it right?
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Old 09-07-2018, 04:54 AM   #16
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Dipping a(nother) toe into this stew, in most states a stab wound is a felony, or at least a potential felony, absent justification. Again, in most states, failure to report a felony is, itself, a crime.

Now, if our hypothetical strong arm robber (no weapons mentioned above, assumed claim of disparity of force), manages to survive the hypothetical incident and refuse to ID his assailant, not much the authorities can do-absent security camera footage. However, if they know where the incident took place, tracing the ownership of all vehicles in the area is childs play. Then things can get really interesting for our hypothetical old coot.

OTOH, if our hypothetical individual above is discovered deceased, then things can get really interesting. Dead bodies stir up interest, less so if the deceased is "known to the police", more if other circumstances exist. Remember the hypothetical vehicle is still there. The prisons are full of folks who looked around and didn't see witnesses. There are also a number of folks there who thought they were justified, but didn't stick around to talk about it.

The alcohol content can be taken care of. Sufficient time to drop to "good levels" no problem. Not sure, request blood test rather than blow in the meter. The hypothetical defender also has a witness present.

Almost forgot, those states who maintain a duty to retreat still note that the retreat has to be able to be done safely (diminish the threat in old cases). A senior citizen pushing a wheelchair while fleeing an younger able bodied attacker is hardly a safe retreat.

Last edited by William R. Moore; 09-07-2018 at 04:59 AM.
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Old 09-07-2018, 06:06 AM   #17
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The alcohol content can be taken care of. Sufficient time to drop to "good levels" no problem. Not sure, request blood test rather than blow in the meter.
And again, state laws come into play WRT the alcohol. Texas, for instance, firearms in a bar are illegal, period. If it's a "restaurant" in name only, that is, 51% of its profits are from alcohol sales, no firearms. Yes, it's supposed to have a 51% signage but no penalty if it doesn't and it's the doer's responsibility to know.

I have a rule from my younger daze I still follow that I initiated long before Texas had licensed carry provisions. If I'm going to drink* I don't carry. I do have A beer before a meal if they serve my beer, but then coffee or ice tea (not sweet-tea) with the meal.

Also, every time I've dropped the hammer I've made the phone call even though no one was injured, much less deceased.

*I mean get a buzz or too damn much beer.
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Old 09-07-2018, 03:16 PM   #18
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In the stated case of an older man pushing a woman in a wheelchair, and was attacked by a criminal attempting a robbery, I don't think how many beers you had would be any kind of issue.

Where that becomes an issue is in cases of mutual stupidity and equal criminal actions.
As example two drunks get in a fight and one stabs another, that would be a problem.

A normal citizen is allowed to have a couple of drinks as long as he's not driving or publicly drunk.
That he was forced to defend himself with a few drinks in him is not going to be any kind of issue, UNLESS you are not in a "stand your ground" state and the stab-ee or family want to sue.
Then there'd be the usual attempt to claim to a jury that you were drunk and provoked it.

In "most" cases the smart move is to get to safety then call the police.
The old saying about "Only the guilty flee when no one pursues" is an issue.
Police/prosecutor/slimy lawyer....."If you did nothing wrong, why did you run away?"
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Old 09-08-2018, 02:51 PM   #19
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Even in the states that allow CCW in establishments that serve alcohol, any alcohol consumption by the CCW during a Firearms Discharge is Illegal. Perhaps it would be overlooked during a mass shooting/terrorist scenario?

Obviously fear for the safety of my wheelchair bound spouse was of primary concern.
But it wasn't the wheelchair pushing Old Coot that ran. How far is a Senior Citizen going to run pushing his wife in a wheelchair?

Are normal Citizens carrying concealed weapons? Or are above normal citizens the one's issued CCW Permits?

Because the firearm was in the truck and not in a carry condition, the ROE for firearms really isn't part of this incident. It might make a difference if the young aggressor was attempting strongarm or armed crime, (J-framed snub nosed revolver) but since we are only considering the Senior Citizens role/culpability in this instance does "Live to fight another day" play into the "Fight or Flight" conversation. Would it really be wise to alert the Police to the possibility of an incident of this nature? Especially since the perpetrator/initiator of this incidence would never report it. Is there any difference between Military ROE's and Civilian Legislation?

Would a normal "Old Coot Wheelchair pushing Citizen" have the training & practice required to neutralize a revolver and turn the tables with just a pocket knife on a young athletic aggressor? Would that play as a positive or negative in a courtroom? Should it actually matter if Justice is to prevail?

First time I got to be the "Devils Advocate to my own Post". LOL.
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Old 09-10-2018, 05:47 PM   #20
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The old saying about "Only the guilty flee when no one pursues" is an issue.
Police/prosecutor/slimy lawyer....."If you did nothing wrong, why did you run away?"
Is right justifiable, and wrong unjustifiable?

Was it right for the "Old Coot" to staunchly defend His disabled & helpless Wife? Or was it merely justifiable?

Is anyone forced to act in self defense or the defense of others "Guilty" for thier actions?
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