Originally Posted by 14sAREGOOD

This is an unusual thread in my opinion. Lots of things said here that I have never heard.

1. I have a Leupold VXIII 3.5x10x40 Long Range M3 Mil-dot 30 mm main tube. It has about 47 minutes of elevation. Compare this with #4.

"Which #4??....Mark 4M1?......90 moa's 45/45 up/down..if this is what you mean by #4??"

2. Some 30 mm tube scopes have 1 inch internal parts. Sales gimmick? I don't know.

"First I have heard this, but anything is possible".

3. You need at least 43 minutes of elevation for 1000 yards from and M1A with 168 BTHP. maybe a little less with 175's. A bolt gun will use less elevation due to higher velocity from ablitiy to withstand higher pressure loads and longer barrels.

"Agreed, this is why I stated 36/38 moa @1000( was refering to bolt guns)."

4. I have a 4.5x14x40 Leupold VX III 1 inch tube with target turrets. It has about 68 minutes of elevation. I am able to use about 65.

" What model # is this??....are you sure you mean 68moa ELevation, or a combo of Ele/Win??, I have( do not recollect ever seing a 1" tube with that much elevation), ( again, anythings possible)." Is this on a slanted base??, or mounted on a Zero moa base?.)".

5. "10x is not sufficient for LONG range precision shooting.......... " Marine Corp Scout Snipers would not agree. If you want litte tiny groups then more magnification may help some. However, as you increase magnification you will see any wobble from your gun also.

" Agreed again to a certain extent, definition of what do YOU consider PRECISION, @ 10x, you are dealing basically with an area target power @ 10x....
You can certainly shoot good groups, but, usually these power scopes are reserved for AREA targets......typically 10"/20" OR MORE.......(to be clear (as with your M3, another AREA target scope), when I say LONG range, I mean past 700 yards, and when I say PRECISION, I mean half MOA / MOA goups, and at these ranges)."

6. "beware the Elevation travel though, you will need at least 36-38moa Ele for 1000 yds.........

And you wont get that without a 30mm tube............."

Not trying to flame anyone here so this is just my humble opinion: Almost every scope made nowadays has 36 minutes for elevation. A good place to do some research on the topics covered so far in this thread is the 2004 Leupold Catalog or website. They list the dimensions for all of their scopes and elevation and windage for each model.

" Sorry, I disagree here, I think we are leaving out some important real world facts.

As I said above, a Loopie MK4M1, has 90 MOA's Total elevation, 45up/45dn.
Mount that puppy, without a MOA canted base, and you will not get close to 90MOA's, you will be lucky to get 45, IF your Windage is good/perfect.( on a FLAT base).

As you are aware, use of windage to Zero your scope, takes away from the advertised available Elevation..."

7. With Leupolds guarantee and OUTSTANDING reputation I wuold think the Iluminated models would hold up OK. If any big name scope maker has a good product it is Leupold.

"While I agree Loopies have a great rep, I dislike Illuminated scopes with the Ill system on the OUTSIDE of the scope, just one more thing to damage, and knock around, indeed, Loopie will take care of the/any problems you may have, but, as I reccomended the NF scope( not that I am in love with them), just that their Ill system is internal, and this lends itself to less chance of damage, and leakage/etc".


Now that I have said my piece I will standby for all of the incoming hatemail. With all due respect I am just sharing my view and experience. Not trying to be impolite.


"Same here, being NEW to the forum, you will certainly not get any of this childish crap(hatemail) from me, just honest opinions, and discourse....

Life's too short to slam folks, and argue......this is just MY experience/s, your's, and two folks opinions.....and, last I checked we both had that right!!!!........

Thanks to you also.!!!!!"

Thanks

Originally Posted by 14sAREGOOD

This is an unusual thread in my opinion. Lots of things said here that I have never heard.

1. I have a Leupold VXIII 3.5x10x40 Long Range M3 Mil-dot 30 mm main tube. It has about 47 minutes of elevation.

Mil Dot Reticle Matte Finish Part No. 51850

Product Highlights:
Incorporating the best features of the Mark 4 M3 and VX-III scopes, the Leupold VX-III 3.5-10x40mm LR/T M3 features M3-style adjustment dials that are specially calibrated and interchangeable for bullet drop compensation. Adjustment increments of 1 MOA elevation and ½ MOA windage allow for easy adjustment. A side parallax adjustment dial allows parallax elimination from a shooting position.

Product Specifications
Actual Magnification: 3.2(3.5x) 9.5(10x)
Length (in): 13.50
Eyepiece Length (in): 3.2
Objective Length (in): 4.30
Objective Diameter (in): 1.80
Eyepiece Diameter (in): 1.60
Tube Diameter: 30mm
Weight: 19.5 oz. / 553 grams
Eye Relief (in): 4.7(3.5x) 3.4(10x)
Eye Relief (mm): 119(3.5x) 93(10x)
Obj. Lens Diameter: 1.575in / 40mm
Max. Adjustment @ 100 yds (in): 65
Max. Adjustment @ 100 m (cm): 181
FOV @ 100 yds (ft): 29.9(3.5x) 11.0(10x)
FOV @ 100 m (m): 10.0(3.5x) 3.7(10x)


(Compare this with comment #4 below.)

2. Some 30 mm tube scopes have 1 inch internal parts. Sales gimmick? I don't know.

3. ---Edited---You need at least 43 minutes of elevation for 1000 yards from and M1A with 168 BTHP. maybe a little less with 175's. A bolt gun will use less elevation due to higher velocity from ablitiy to withstand higher pressure loads and longer barrels.
See added chart below:
Input Data
Muzzle Velocity: 2600.0 ft/sec
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.462
Drag Function: G1
Bullet Weight: 168 grains
Sight Height: 1.50 inches
Wind Cross Speed: 10 mph
LOS Angle: 0 degrees
Target Speed: 10 mph
Zero Range: 100 yards
Temperature: 59.0 °F
Barometric Pressure: 29.92 in Hg
Relative Humidity: 0.0 %
Altitude: 0 feet
Air Density: 100 % of Sea Level


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Calculated Table
Elevation: 4.042 moa
Azimuth: 0.000 moa

Range Velocity Energy Momentum Drop Windage Lead Time
(yards) (ft/sec) (ft-lbs) (lbs-sec) (moa) (moa) (moa) (sec)
0 2600.0 2521.6 1.94 --- --- --- 0.000
100 -0.0
200 -2.2
300 -5.1
400 -8.6
500 -12.5
600 -17.0
700 -22.1
800 -28.0
900 -34.6
1000 -42.2

4. ---Edited---I have a 4.5x14x40 Leupold VX III 1 inch tube with target turrets. It has about 68 minutes of elevation. I am able to use about 65.

Added: The scope I have is not a current production model. It has the paralax adjustment on the front objective, target style turret for windage and elevation. It is mounted on a Remington 700PSS .308 with Ken Farrell 30 MOA cant, one piece steel base and Leupold PRW rings. This scope has 15 minutes of elevation for each complete revolution of the turret. This one turns just over 4 full revs.

Product Specifications for my scope are similar to:Model #Part No. 57135
Actual Magnification: 4.8(4.5x) 14.2(14x)
Length (in): 12.6
Eyepiece Length (in): 2.9
Objective Length (in): 3.6
Objective Diameter (in): 1.8
Eyepiece Diameter (in): 1.55
Tube Diameter: 1.0in
Weight: 13.2 oz. / 374.2 grams
Eye Relief (in): 4.4(4.5x) 3.6(14x)
Eye Relief (mm): 112(4.5x) 93(14x)
Obj. Lens Diameter: 1.6in / 40mm
Max. Adjustment @ 100 yds (in): 67
Max. Adjustment @ 100 m (cm): 186
FOV @ 100 yds (ft): 19.9(4.5x) 7.4(14x)
FOV @ 100 m (m): 6.6(4.5x) 2.5(14x)

Cool.......I understand NOW, what was not stated in your prior post......
Am M3 is a different animal altogeter, compared to your .25 click 4.5, and, with the 30moa Farrell base, we now know why you have so much elevation...take it off..and see what you have then....not a lot.


5. ---Edited---"10x is not sufficient for LONG range precision shooting.......... " Marine Corp Scout Snipers would not agree. If you want litte tiny groups then more magnification may help some. However, as you increase magnification you will see any wobble from your gun also.

This comment is in reference to the original post from the author of this thread regarding use for plinking.

Hmmmm, I thought he stated long distance shooting....300+ yards, plinking part I must have missed...

6. "beware the Elevation travel though, you will need at least 36-38moa Ele for 1000 yds.........

And you wont get that without a 30mm tube............."

Ok, still stand by this,,,,,,,you have the prime example with the 4.5, w/ 30 moa base.....what are the win/ele values without the Farrell base??.....I venture not enough to get you to 1000, with you M1A, or even a bolt gun.



Either way, we are now clear...........I see no mix up's......I do have one question......WHY do you use that set of data for drop/wind, etc..??
Is that how it usually is where you shoot??.
As most use the standard data tables to figure drop/path/etc.......

Not trying to flame anyone here so this is just my humble opinion: Almost every scope made nowadays has 36 minutes for elevation. A good place to do some research on the topics covered so far in this thread is the 2004 Leupold Catalog or website. They list the dimensions for all of their scopes and elevation and windage for each model.

7. With Leupolds guarantee and OUTSTANDING reputation I wuold think the Iluminated models would hold up OK. If any big name scope maker has a good product it is Leupold.


Now that I have said my piece I will standby for all of the incoming hatemail. With all due respect I am just sharing my view and experience. Not trying to be impolite.

Thanks

Originally Posted by 14sAREGOOD

Two Shoes wrote:


"Cool.......I understand NOW, what was not stated in your prior post......
An M3 is a different animal altogeter, compared to your .25 click 4.5, and, with the 30moa Farrell base, we now know why you have so much elevation...take it off..and see what you have then....not a lot. "

Now that we are getting into beating a dead horse........

What dead horse, still confused here.
I thought I had a legit question here.

The scope mentioned above has 67/68 minutes of elevation on or off any base, rings or rifle. Stated another way; If the scope was laying on my work bench you could not say that, "This scope has no elevation."
A fact is a fact is a fact. How you mount your scopes is up to you. Each rifle, scope, mount etc. has it's own properties which are independent of one another. The fact that I use a base which allows me to use nearly 100% of my scopes mechanical ability is just a matter of utilizing my equipment to the fullest extant.

I got that, I have owned at least 50 or more Leupolds, and other barnds in the past 10 years alone.......
You say your scope has 67/68 minutes of ELEVATION laying on a bench....
And you SAY it has 65 usable on a 30 moa base.........what part am I missing??( IF it has what you say it does, then w/ a 30 moa base, it should be at approx 80/90moa usable ele........

What I think you are saying, is your scope has a total elevation of 67/68, but, you have to split that by 2, depending on what base you use........

So, if you have the specs on it, it will likely say 30-35 moa ele UP & DOWN.
Now, are we on the same page, or am I still lost in space....LOL.
This again, is a 1" tube right?.



"And you wont get that without a 30mm tube............."

Ok, still stand by this,,,,,,,you have the prime example with the 4.5, w/ 30 moa base.....what are the win/ele values without the Farrell base??.....I venture not enough to get you to 1000, with you M1A, or even a bolt gun."

See above comments. Also, to be exact my PSS 308 with 26 inch barrel could shoot to exactly 840 yards in the very hot western dessert.

With WHAT scope??.(if on the M3, yeah, I can see that, you ran out of elevation, put the 30 moa base on it, and you will go way past 840yds), if on the 4.5, I do not understand, unless you have a flat base on it...........


"I do have one question......WHY do you use that set of data for drop/wind, etc..??
Is that how it usually is where you shoot??.
As most use the standard data tables to figure drop/path/etc....... "

I have seen many different tables for come ups. Some from sniper log books and some from highpower rifle log books and countless others that are out of training books and custom printed for indiviual guns and shooters. I chronograph my handloads and the factory loads I use with regularity. In answer to your question, I use the tables becuase they work with my gun in the temperatures I shoot.

That's what I figured...........

-Goods