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Old 09-17-2018, 07:54 AM   #1
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Evaluating your defensive weapon capability

Evaluating your weapons Terminal Ballistic Performance (TBP)
THE GREAT TRUTHS:

1. Never tug on Superman's Cape.

2. Never take a knife to a gunfight.

3. Never ever take a handgun to a rifle match.

4. General Nathan Bedford Forrests CSA quote for winning a fight, "Get there the firstest with the mostest."


The Army Surgeon General ordered a Wound Ballistic's Lab set up at the Presidio in 1981. Col. Martin Facker,MD was commander. Pigs were anesthetized (as being closest to duplicating the human body) and shot with various munitions and X rayed to determine wound trauma, bullet path, bullet integrity, penetration etc. They were then dispatched and sent to the dining for barbecues at the Presidio.


He quickly came to the conclusion that handgun rounds were worthless at producing permanent wound cavatation and most of them lacked enough penetration to get to where they would do the most good.


Fackler told me center fire rifle 6.5MM or larger would incapacitate an assailant quicker with a non lethal wound faster than a lethal wound from any handgun.
Then the disaster happened. In April 1986 in Miami Dade County Fla there was a shootout between 8 FBI Special Agents and to bank robbery suspects. Two agents were killed and five were wounded as one of the suspects was killed instantly and the other used a Mini 14 in 223.


Fackler's work was known by the FBI and there was a big conference at Quantico FBI facility Sept 15-17th 1987 to conduct a Wound Ballistics Workshop. Fackler sent me the minutes and I provided my original copy to the Assn of Firearms & Toolmarks Examiners (AFTE) who scanned it and published it on their site.


Here it is: https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...Ta?usp=sharing


Below is the first sentence of the summary of the workshop.


"Wounding - Except for hits to the central nervous system (CNS) reliable and reproducible instant incapacitation is not possible with any handgun bullet."
There was a presenation at the Fed Law Enf Tng Center I attended. First shot fired was from a S&W Mod 59 using Winchester 9MM Silvertip ammo by an FBI Agent that struck one of the bank robbers in left side of thoracic cavity as he crawled out drivers window and penetrated his heart with no "instant incapacitation" thus allowing him to initiate and sustain fire for several minutes killing two agents and wounding five more.

The bad guy ran out of ammo, crawled back into his car, cranked it and was backing up to leave when one agent ran up to the side of his car and put one into his cranial vault. If FBI had used 6.5MM or larger lives and injuries would have been reduced if not eliminated.


PER THE CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATOR EVERY LAST FBI AGENT WOUNDED BY THE 223 MINI 14 DID NOT FIRE ANOTHER SHOT FOR THE REMAINDER OF THE SHOOTOUT.


Fackler was asked by the FBI what the minimum round would require to accomplish sufficient penetration and Fackler ran the numbers and recommended 10MM but few women could handle the recoil and many guys could not and S&W came up with their 40 Cal as being close but less penetration.
From the Workshop Minutes: "Given equal penetration a bigger bullet will disrupt more tissue and hopefully cause greater bleeding. Barring a CNS hit incapacitation can only be forced by blood loss and that takes time as well as sufficient penetration to hit major blood vessels through intervening musculature, fat, clothing, arms etc." It was very clear that no handgun will produce such a wound.

Fackler basically said that it is extremely rare that a person sustaining a solid thoracic cavity wound from a high power rifle will survive. I know of no one that ever heard of such a person wounded in this manner surviving.


All the above is made more critical if one does not possess enough skill with a handgun to deliver a shot where it's needed in a hurry



Per the FBI Data on shootings I have read the vast majority of handgun shootings occur between 3 and 5 yards at night. I have never seen time/distance data on shootings with a rifle but Fackler determined the 5.56 rounds (M193/M855) lost lots energy when it passed 95 yards.


Obviously in a self defense scenario the first hit will generally determine the outcome so the idea is to develop accuracy first and then speed. US Border Patrolman Bill Jordan wrote a excellent book and he had some unique advice : "Take your time in a hurry.", "No one has ever been killed as the result of a loud noise." In other words misses don't help you, only hits count and with a handgun the miss factor is way up there. Thus threats surviving a hit from a handgun is pretty good but your missed shots will definitely lower the odds of your own survivability
Col Fackler told me that he had determined from the data he collected over the years that 75% of assailants will go down with one shot from about anything. NOT DIE, JUST COLLAPSE. The next 20% will take multiple shots and 5% will only be stopped by a round crushing or severing the spinal cord or penetration into the cranial vault with enough energy. He went on to say if they are on drugs the pain from the shots will not register in the brain and are very likely to be active/dangerous for several minutes.


I worked with a guy who shot a guy 7 times with 45 ACP dead center chest and he was still coming and he stopped him cold with 8th shot in the cranial vault. The thing you must remember is that if you shoot someone with a handgun don't be surprised if they don't react or run off.


Fackler said in the home the hands down best is a 12 ga shotgun with "Number 0 Buckshot" He went on to say the shotgun has a very limited effective range. I conducted testing with Buckshot on silhouette targets and at 25 yards the pattern will cover expand to about 16" to 20" and terminal performance is thus degraded.


The best training I have knowledge of was developed by Col Jeff Cooper USMC retd at his Gunsite Ranch Training Facility utilizing electronic timers.
Rifle: You put up one 6" paper plate at 25 yards and you stand with your rifle at the port arms ready and the timer beeps, you raise the rifle and you fire one shot as quick as you can in 1.5 seconds or less. You do this for five one shot runs. When you fire the timer hears the shot and stops and shows you elapsed time. You reset for each additional shot. If you do not fire in 1.5 seconds the shot is considered a miss. Obviously if there is no hole in the plate that is also a miss.


There is a second level, same target, same time requirement fired at 50 yards. Then the third level 10" plate, 2 seconds allowed at 100 yards.


Do a Bing search for "Art of the Rifle Snap Shot Rifle Test" That should bring up a youtube of this training.

Handgun: Put up a 6" paper plate at 7 yds. When timer beeps draw and fire one shot in 1.5 seconds or less. Most shootings occur at 3 to 5 yards at night per FBI data I have read. 10" plate at 25 yards in 2 seconds or less.


Fackler started the International Wound Ballistics Assn made up of MDs interested in TBP. Journals were published for several years, there were no ads in the Journals from any vendor. Our member fees paid for publishing them. Subscriptions were available and they have many very interesting articles. Obviously they were out of print many years ago with first issue Fall of 1992.


https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...3pWYVVJeGlGaFE

Copy and paste the above and you can download every issue published as they were all scanned by AFTE and you can download them all for free. If you read all of them you will gain an amazing knowledge of Wound Ballistics and evaluations. You might want to put these on a separate thumb drive.

Last edited by Hummer; 09-18-2018 at 04:08 AM.
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Old 09-17-2018, 02:26 PM   #2
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Thanks, Hummer! Your first link says I need permission to access it, though...

"You need permission

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Old 09-17-2018, 02:43 PM   #3
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As an Air Force cadet in 1970 I was put through the Army's Snap-Shoot course at Fort Carson. As I recall (it's been a while) this was the drill:

You were given a BB gun without sights, and an instructor stood about two meters out in front of you with a pie plate. You held the gun at high ready and the instructor tossed the pie plate up in the air in front of you. You quickly brought the BB gun to eye level and tried to bounce a BB off of it. Most of us were proficient within a few shots.

At that point the instructor stared backing off...three meters, then four, then five. When you were proficient at five meters, the pie plates were exchanged for smaller and smaller disks, until at the final stage you were popping disks the size of the lid on a Nestles' Quik canister (remember those?).

At this point, you were handed an M-16 and got to walk an assault course, with targets popping up all around you and staying up for only a couple of seconds. There was no time to align sights...you brought the rifle to eye level and fired. It was amazing how a bunch of inexperienced shooters were brought to a high level of proficiency in snap shooting in such a short amount of time.

(Incidentally, every time I've experienced an Army training program I've been impressed. The Army seems to have a knack for distilling the essential elements of any skill down to the basics, then coming up with training programs that drill those skills, layer upon layer, into the trainees. In jump school at Benning I watched eighteen year-old draftees jump out of airplanes on their very first flight ever, and do an excellent job at that. My hat's off to the Army for it's educational prowess.)
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Old 09-17-2018, 06:45 PM   #4
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Hummer, I've been trained from day one that the only way to make a one shot stop with .45 ACP handgun takes two shots. The first center of mass strike slows the enemy down enough that the second well placed round to the medulla oblongata ("The Apple" in simple speak) takes all the fight out of them. Most every rifle outperforms a sidearm for lethality at every range, but inside of 21 feet a hit from a sidearm outperforms a miss from a rifle. JMHO. The closer you get, shorting the barrel helps the swing arc. Nose to Nose, try sticking your thumb in thier crotch as hard as you can. It's proven effective over time for me. LOL.

Last edited by M118LR; 09-17-2018 at 06:51 PM. Reason: add oomph
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Old 09-18-2018, 03:58 AM   #5
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Capt Gyro, yep I remember that BB gun training. It was written up in American Rifleman in a nice article and was effective.

There was another program where the Army Marksmanship Unit in Nam put out requests for line companies to send in their worst shot for training.

They got them in and gave them intense marksmanship training for a week and when unit came to the field they got the best shot from company and as I remember the guy with the advanced training beat the best shot every time. Don't think that was written up anywhere but was told to me by a AMU shooter I shot with at Camp Perry who was there for the training/testing.

Diamondback, you are the first one that has reported this problem. Try this, open google.com and gmail and see it if works from there. I just checked and the Shareable link is on??????? Says anyone with link can open it?????? I just reloaded it again.

If that does not work send me a PM with your email address on it and I will send you the file.

At FLETC students are taught over and over and over "two to the body and go for the head". You gotta be careful making such a statement around Marines ! ! ! ! haha

Last edited by Hummer; 09-18-2018 at 04:53 AM.
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Old 09-18-2018, 05:00 AM   #6
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Maybe I'm a nitpicker, but your description of the Silvertip chest wound doesn't match the autopsy report. Also, I recently bought Ed Mirales book and he doesn't describe it that way either.

BTW, the book is a great read and cheap at the price.

The premise that the rifle is a better weapon than the handgun is obvious. I ran into the guy running the FBI R&D section (did the bullet testing) after their report came out. He mentioned that at that time, roughly 50% of Agency armed encounters involved people in vehicles-thus the emphasis on vehicle penetration. He agreed when I noted that there was a message there about using shoulder weapons, not handguns.
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Old 09-18-2018, 05:48 AM   #7
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Interesting I never saw the autopsy report. The crime scene investigator from Miami Dade came to FLETC said he was shot with 9MM Silvertip from left side and it penetrated the heart. Up until that point I had no reservations about that round. I know Winchester renamed it quickly.

I remember the conversation I had about it later with Fackler and the chances of suspect survival and Fackler told me what I wrote which jived with what the Miami Dade Detective told us.


Is there a copy of autopsy on line? Update: I got a long article written by a MD ten years after the event where he analyzed pics of scene and developed assumptions etc.

After the FLETC lecture from Miami Dade I walked up and asked him which FBI vehicles had the M16s with full auto block switches installed were on the scene. He asked where I heard that and I told him I got that information from Quantico and was also told everyone with a S&W 59 was issued the M16 to go with it. I had been shown them on a trip to Quantico prior to the shootout and IIRC I had gone over to see Ray Sweet in the firearms section and we were given THE TOUR of the firearms unit/ranges etc. By his reaction it was clear that they were not volunteering that for public consumption and image is everything.

I also remember the investigator said his sister worked for Bureau.

There were two lectures at FLETC, One recorded for distribution and one was not and we were told we were getting more information than was provided on the recorded session. As I remember most everyone at the second session was from Firearms Training Division. Of course there were others who I did not know. There was about 50 folks in the unrecorded session.

The non-recorded session also said Agents were riding around with their side arms on the seats and during the vehicle impacts prior to everything coming to a stop Agents found their side arms were no longer laying on seats next to them but were off the end of front seat or under them.

He also told us no one had on body armor and one was holding vest up in front of him like a barricade and shooting.

He also told us when Miami-Dade units arrived they could not tell who was who so first car they got to the shooter was asked who he was. He said "FBI". The Miami-Dade boys weren't taking any chances and he had to pull his creds and show them.

He also told us how the suspect vehicle description with tag number was obtained which gave them what they were looking for. He recounted how one G car had passed the BOLO vehicle coming out of a shopping center where one of the banks they were checking was located and they turned around and put out the word. As I remember there were more banks than units so each G Car had like 3 to 5 banks to check constantly.

He also told us that Bureau had not passed info to the locals as they were thinking Miami-Dade personnel might be involved.

He also told us what one of the suspect's girlfriend told them, what they did with the money they had previously stolen from other banks, their weapon practice sessions and about the third suspect who was not there.



I later got a copy of the recorded session but have no idea of where it is. I am sure I still have it but whether it still works after 30+ years is iffy.

I had been telling people at FLETC for three years prior that if they ever ran up on a rifleman that knew what to do with it they would have a bad day. Thus I coined the "Third Great Truth."

Last edited by Hummer; 09-19-2018 at 04:18 AM.
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Old 09-18-2018, 08:18 AM   #8
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Years ago the August 1999 issue of "Handguns" has an article ghost written by Waldo Lydecker under a nom de plume. Also Charlie had one of the best write-ups on the mess.



One agent lost his glasses and couldn't see to engage. As noted by Hummer, any agent with his handgun on the seat lost it on impact. Add to that this took place in a residential neighborhood made the a first class cluster <beep>.

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Old 09-18-2018, 02:37 PM   #9
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I never kept up with all the hoopla that came afterwards but it seems if something was not right Col Fackler would have known and he worked closely with FBI Quantico. Fackler and I exchanged emails weekly at a minimum and we talked about an hour a month after he retired and moved to Gainseville, Fla which he fell in love with when he came down and we gave lectures to the Gainesville PD. He said he really liked the area and pretty soon said he was going there when he hung up his dog tags. Seems he moved to Gainesville about 1991?

I checked my emails and I had just talked to him and emailed him about three weeks before he passed. He sounded perfectly fine. You never know when your number is coming up lots of times.
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Old 09-18-2018, 04:53 PM   #10
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The Vietnam War Army close range instinctive shooting course was known as "Quick Kill".

This included a Daisy BB gun with an adult length stock and no sights, a number of different size steel disks, and safety glasses.

Apparently when the live fire training with the M16 rifle was conducted over the shoot course the rifle had a wide rubber band stretched over the front and rear sight to block them off so they couldn't be used.

The Army reported that after training a number of people could hit a BB tossed into the air with surprising regularity.

Daisy sold a civilian version of the kit called "Quick-Skill".
It included a Daisy BB gun with no sights, the same sizes of steel disks, and two pairs of shooting glasses, along with an instructor's manual on how to teach the course.

I learned this long before the military discovered it.
I bought a friend's very well used Daisy BB gun for $2.00 that had sights so bent up they were useless.
At the time I didn't know that I could have bent them into shape and gotten better target accuracy, but I was bored with shooting paper targets.
I quickly taught myself to hit by instinctively "pointing" the gun.

In the course of a long summer off of grade school I proceeded to shoot every seed off some sort of large tree in the back yard.
I got so good on steel beer cans tossed in the air, that I could, if the can aligned properly, regularly put a BB into the can through the small triangular opening left by a beer can opener.
This was back in the days of steel beer cans opened with a beer can opener.

I always had some sort of BB rifle or pistol and spent many days, summer and winter shooting in the back yard.
I got so good at making difficult shots on moving or small targets that my older brother made money betting his friends that I could make shots.
Somehow I never seemed to get any of the proceeds.

All this paid off later when I started shooting real guns.
You learn to shoot by shooting.
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Old 09-18-2018, 04:59 PM   #11
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I am getting ready to field a sightless 1903. Barrel is pretty well shot so no big deal about no sights. I am going to play around with it. I have a bunch of IMI ammo I need to pull down because it is loaded too hot. Thanks to you guys bring this up I am going to get it going. Least ways I won't have to buy a new barrel.

I am thinking I am going to rig a hanging target out of a disc blade and hopefully get to where I can tag it at 50 yards with no sights.

Thanks guys.
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Old 09-18-2018, 05:55 PM   #12
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Hummer,

May I suggest that you send the barrel to Jessie at JES to be rebored/rechambered to the larger caliber of your choice??
Perhaps .35 Whelen??

Jessie does FAULTLESS work, quickly & at a very reasonable price.

He rechambered/rebored a circa mid-1969 Model 760 pump-rifle in .30-06, which had a badly worn/pitted bore to 9.3x62mm Mauser. = That rifle will now put all 5 rounds into a circle that measures less than 50mm at 200M. At 100M, I get a single ragged hole, if I do my part.

just my OPINION, sw
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Old 09-18-2018, 06:14 PM   #13
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I'm currently doing some snap shooting with my suppressed High Standard .22 HD Military.

The threaded barrel that Charlie gifted me has no front sight.

I'm doing better at 20 yds. than might be expected.
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Old 09-18-2018, 08:26 PM   #14
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Now on the serious side of the Dade County incident:

The LEO that scored hits while wielding his cruiser's shotgun loaded with buckshot, how much different would the after action report read if his shotgun had a sidecar of slugs or even 12 Gauge Solids? Why hasn't the LEO Community added 12 Gauge Solids (as body armour and animal control rounds) to the Standard Cruiser Trench Broom? Sometimes I believe that far to much Whiz Kids analysis has entered into a simple equation. Provide LEO's with a variety of ammo up to and including the greatest lethal option for the proven effective (training experienced) firearms that they practice, qualify, and carry during actual operations. Sidearm, Rifle, or Shotgun; without the ability to instantly select the most effective ammo for the operation as it unfolds....... Failure to plan always equals preplanned failure, the stricker the process the more the results emulate "Red Bean/Beads Experiments" (forgot the name of the guy that headed up the Japanese rebuild) .

Thank You Goggle/Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming

Last edited by M118LR; 09-18-2018 at 08:39 PM. Reason: syntec/CRS
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Old 09-19-2018, 03:56 AM   #15
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Stand Watie, I have a 35 Whelen, a 358 Win, 35 Remington, and chamber reamers for the first two. The 358 has 26" barrel for cat sneeze loads. I have a 220 gr SWC mold for the first two and run 180 gr. Sierra pistol bullets in 35 Remington that makes for much less expensive shooting.

M118 I agree shotguns can be improved but alas most police departments don't know or don't care or have someone they call their Exspurt who really isn't. For instance when everyone wanted 9MM because the Army bought one.

I have 9MMs but not because Army bought them. It is because they will take the 9MM NATO ammo which is much hotter and standard US production.

It it had not been for Fackler the industry would still be loading what they did 40 years ago.

I have been looking for a good 760 Rem in 06 for years but have not found one. No way would I take a 742.

I have two Nylon 66s, thinking about taking front sight off one and use it till I am reasonably accurate before I start launching the expensive stuff.

Also have some IMI 308 ammo that is factory loaded way too hot I will pull down and reduce loads and keep the Sierra 180s they are loaded with and exchanged them for a bunch of pulled 173 gr bullets I have. Talk about pressure signs every last round fired in anything gives flattened cratered primers ! ! ! ! ! That is why I have it as it was pulled from use as being too hot and given to me as my friend knew I knew what needed to be done with it.

Last edited by Hummer; 09-19-2018 at 04:07 AM.
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Old 09-19-2018, 06:20 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hummer View Post
I have 9MMs but not because Army bought them. It is because they will take the 9MM NATO ammo which is much hotter and standard US production.
I consider myself fortunate to have retired before being issued a M9. Oh, I've got one 9mm but it's not for the NATO ammo. Too light for that.

I've a canister of 7.62x51 from Lake City. While 0.005" longer than standard .308, my bolt handles it without problems and the lower pressure makes it more pleasant to shoot.
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Old 09-19-2018, 06:42 AM   #17
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csmkersh,

I also was NOT ever issued an M9. About a year before I retired, our USACIDC District CDR ordered me to turn in my (seized from a drug dealer) BHP & had a brand new M11 (the USA version of the SIG22 issued to me by the detachment armorer. = NICE pistol, btw.

Because the Army didn't have an LH holsters for the M11, I bought myself a DON HUME Model 30 OWB holster to fit it. = NICE holster, too.


yours, sw
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Old 09-19-2018, 07:12 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by stand watie View Post
Because the Army didn't have an LH holsters for the M11, I bought myself a DON HUME Model 30 OWB holster to fit it. = NICE holster, too.
That was an aggravation with the old 1941 flap holsters. Oh, there was a federal stock number but when Bianchi got the contract and built their holsters for the 1911, I ordered a LH holster and the shoulder harness. That's what I used in my "grand tour" of Germany in 1987. Ran into General Cherry and he wanted to know how I managed to get the Bianchi rig and, being a wise a$$, I grinned and pointed to the CSM strips on my BDUs. He just laughed.

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Old 09-19-2018, 08:29 AM   #19
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I don't believe the autopsy report was ever officially made public. Those tend to be regarded as tightly controlled documents-especially in such a situation as the Miami incident.

I had/had access to portions thereof and may actually have those portions in a box somewhere. [There was also a lot of stuff I had in electronic storage that I wasn't able to retrieve before I retired. IT instituted a system where memory devices had to have handshake software resident earlier than announced. I hope I downloaded an FBI analysis of a LLEA encounter in PA that generated a lot of flak.] ]I've got cartons of stuff tucked away.

Ed Mirales notes in his book that the infamous Silvertip stopped "about 2 inches short of the heart." I'd expect he had extensive access to materials outsiders wouldn't.

I very vaguely recall a X-ray showing a bullet to the right of the heart. However, memory ain't what it used to be.

Last edited by William R. Moore; 09-19-2018 at 08:37 AM.
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Old 09-19-2018, 09:55 AM   #20
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csmkersh,

ROTFL. = About a week after entering AD, I found that a CSM could get ANYTHING, including things made of "unobtainium".

yours, sw

Last edited by stand watie; 09-19-2018 at 09:58 AM. Reason: typo
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