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Old 09-19-2018, 03:42 PM   #21
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William R Moore

I suspect the crime scene detective from Miami Dade may not have had access to ALL the info before he came to FLETC. Then again I don't know how he got there, i.e. if he called and wanted to come or was asked to come. Seems there was a notice on the bulletin board at the Indoor Range saying there was going to be a briefing on it. I have absolutely no reference of the date they came but it was fresh in everyone's mind so was probably put on about a month after the shooting out??????

I remember I called Col Fackler and told him about it ( the briefing) and he apparently already had the same poop we got as he told me it was a heart penetration on the first shot and I definitely remember the briefer saying that nobody fired a shot after being hit. That was not remarkable as 5.56 at close range had a wound cavity that would not be pleasant.

People think 5.56 goes right through and does nothing but it starts to tumble and just after the largest part of the cavity if formed the M193 bullet breaks at the cannelure and creates shrapnel if that part of the body is thick enough.

I never read anything more on it.

When I asked the briefer about the M16s in trunk I knew I had touched a very sensitive area as he dropped his voice and started speaking quietly with me in a one on one scenario.

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Old 09-19-2018, 04:31 PM   #22
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Rumor mills tend to run overtime in those situations. The PA case I mentioned had "authoritative" notices on LE limited access boards about how "FBI tested & blessed" .40 ammo only penetrated 1 inch. The FBI descended and grabbed autopsy materials, and did a powerpoint that saw wide distribution [their ammo test protocols were threatened].

The rumor was massively debunked, the felon made outstanding use of cover and most of the wounds tended to be peripheral rather than through body center. Being who they were, the FBI couldn't pass up noting that the 5.56 mm rounds that ended (?) the fight didn't pass the FBI protocol.

Gotta search that dedicated thumb drive and see if I've got the PP there or if I printed it and stuffed it in one of those boxes. IIRC, I got it as a email ....oh boy, maybe I emailed it to myself.

ADDED: checked email and archived email, nope. Guess it's storage box diving if I ever need it.

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Old 09-19-2018, 07:28 PM   #23
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.People think it goes right through and does nothing but it starts to tumble and just after the largest part of the cavity if formed the M193 bullet breaks at the cannelure and creates shrapnel if that part of the body is thick enough.
Years ago I read one of Col Fackler's papers online and his description was the same as what Hummer just wrote.

The Army training film we were shown some years earlier show the round tearing up a cinder block wall.
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Old 09-19-2018, 08:16 PM   #24
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The Army training film we were shown some years earlier show the round tearing up a cinder block wall.
I have learned to take Army claims/information of anything related to the 5.56 and/or M16 with more than a grain of salt. Perhaps a few more rounds expended at the one way range by most of the than members of Big Green would be advisable?

But the DM program says it all for the rifle/ammo actual abilities afield. (JMHO) Yet the M4 & MK318 seem to be the Urban Warrior's cup of tea. The round was best suited to full auto jungle engagements at distances measured in feet, out to perhaps 100 yards. (McNamara's Folly was just designed to appease folks Humping it in the Jungle and meeting up with an AK) The only rifle/ammo combination that was more requested and still less capable was the .30 M1/M2 Carbine. It had more capacity and terminal performance than a .45 ACP 1911, but it wasn't a "Battlefield" primary rifle/ammo combination.

Yet, have we digressed enough that LEO's require the same equipment to Police America's Streets as Our Troops Over-There?
(okay, perhaps Chicago is more treacherous than Over-There.)
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Old 09-20-2018, 08:39 AM   #25
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I have learned to take Army claims/information of anything related to the 5.56 and/or M16 with more than a grain of salt. Perhaps a few more rounds expended at the one way range by most of the than members of Big Green would be advisable?e.
They emptied a magazine at what looked like 20 yards. And I had friends who lived with the M16 and its early ammo. Somehow we had M16s for about 3 months the exchanged for the M16A1 with forward assist.
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Old 09-20-2018, 08:55 AM   #26
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CSM Kersch;,
If you find/ run across that article Fackler wrote I would greatly appreciate a copy of it but then again it may be in the Journal collection that I put a link to in bottom of OP. It is downloaded from my cloud.

I hope to run across my VCR tape of the crime scene investigator at FLETC but then again he told us in the presentation we were at that we were getting more information than he put on the VCR which was the presentation before ours.

Thanks much
Hummer

Oh yeah forgot that wall being shot down was originally done at Springfield Armory. The guy that trained me knew the gunners that did the test and they told him they did several takes before the wall came apart like they wanted. The final film made showed one shooter with M16 but what it did not show was a gunner left and right out camera using BARs to take down the block wall. There was one Captain at Springfield who was given the mission of selling the M16 and when he came to Aberdeen Proving Ground the Test Directors told him what they thought of it and he said he knew but he was following orders to make it look good. You can BS most of the people most of the time but when you get to the pros in your ballgame that ends quickly.

William R. Moore, I would appreciate your stuff as well. Not familiar with the shooting you referenced.

Last edited by Hummer; 09-20-2018 at 09:01 AM.
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Old 09-20-2018, 03:49 PM   #27
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Hummer, the Fackler article was lost a couple of computers ago. HD crashes.
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Old 09-20-2018, 07:00 PM   #28
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I had friends who lived with the M16 and its early ammo. Somehow we had M16s for about 3 months the exchanged for the M16A1 with forward assist.
I'm sure there were plenty of others that didn't survive with the M16 and the early ammo. But there where many exaggerated testimonies for the Original 55 grain load. We can Thank the other members of NATO for the penetrator. I'm sure you are aware why the forward assist modification was deemed needed.
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Old 09-21-2018, 05:17 AM   #29
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There are several but to save lots of typing and explaining others can go to:


The 5.56 X 45mm "Timeline" - 1983 ? LooseRounds.com

This is the best collection on the history of the M16 outside of the government I know of from initial adoption to today.

Scroll down to 1983, open it and scroll down to February
and read what it says about the M16A1E1 (adopted as the M16A2) which was the result of the Marine Corps moving out on their own and getting Colt to make up rifles for Aberdeen Testing which they adopted immediately as the M16A2 followed several months later by the Army and then others.

When I got to the Army small cal lab in 78 I think I was told there was like 550 changes made up till that time on the M16 family. I suspect by now there are closer to 650.
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Old 09-21-2018, 07:31 PM   #30
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Excellent resource Hummer. In 83 the Navy disbanded Frogmen. I traded greens and got a pair of brown shoes in the procedure.

"Prior to criticising someone you should walk a mile in thier shoes. That way when you criticise someone your a mile away, and you got thier shoes." Forgot the author, but I'm sure google can answer for the curious.
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