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Old 08-03-2012, 06:45 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Gibson View Post
I know I'm very late weighing in on this, but it's very hard to see where Martin actually did anything offending until the altercation. The way someone "looks" just doesn't cut it; I hope to God that's not what passes for a defence in a lethal force case in ANY state. Yeah if I see someone who looks "to me" like a dirtbag casing my house, I'm going to take notice, but that's a big difference from taking aggressive action.

On the other hand, it's very difficult to see Zimmerman as anything but the aggressor. He chose to pursue Martin, which really paints a picture of an aggressor.

I think Mr. Burke nailed it on the lack of judgement comment. Zimmerman is likely (perhaps rightfully so) to pay a very steep price for his actions for decades to come. Classic example of why lethal force ought to truely be your last resort.
IMHO this case has been twisted and bastardized and mis-reported by the media to a degree that makes it nearly cosmic in it's ramifications and effects.
According one iteration of the "report" Zimmerman disobeyed a 911 operator's suggestion not to follow Martin and this resulted in a confrontation.
Another version has Zimmerman obeying the 911 operator and then returning to his car,(whose suggestions do not have a "force of law," BTW) and then being ambushed by Martin, who punched him in the nose.
At this point Zimmerman went to the ground and Martin was on top, bashing his head against the concrete walkway. According to one statement Zimmerman made Martin discovered the presence of Zimmerman's gun and said "you're dead," but Zimmerman retained possesion and, having been bloodied and fearful, shot Martin.
A lot has been made of Zimmerman narrowing in on Martin because Martin had a "hoodie." Perhaps this is arguable. Criminals in the area were known to dress like that but is that sufficient cause for Zimmerman to "assume" Martin is a criminal?
Another thing is that while Zimmerman may have exceeded any reasonable citizen's right/authority to act in this circumstance (I won't debate it I will only recognize there ARE questions regarding Zimmerman's behaviour) does that mean Martin had a right to confront and attack Zimmerman? Zimmerman had a cellphone and actually used it to call police. Martin had one too and had just called a girlfriend. He presumably could have called 911 himself if he felt Zimmerman was acting in a threatening or suspicious manner -- which he certainly might have believed.
My view is that Martin had not been granted any right to assault Zimmerman and was wrong to do so. Was Zimmerman right in feeeling his life was in danger?
According to Zimmerman Martin verbally threatened his life in the same moment he discovered Zimmerman was armed.
However, this is Zimmerman's testimony (or statement, it wasn't made under oath) and is thus "self-serving." Maybe it's true. Maybe not.
This is now a matter for the court to wrangle over, a matter for a jury to decide based on evidence & testimony in court.
So, could my above reflection of this be wrong? Absolutly. As I said, the media reporting has been horrid, and Zimmerman has at times contradicted himself, plus he's had his initial bail revoked and reset after keeping facts about his financial situation from the court.
So Zimmerman is not a bright shiny Apple Pie Red white and blue American example of self defense. Normally I might be inclined to say someone in Zimmerman's position might be in a good defensible position for a claim of self defense ....but as the matter actually stands, .
So there you are. A nice clear-cut case right out of the annals of Perry Mason.

Last edited by TommyGunn; 08-03-2012 at 06:57 AM.
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Old 08-03-2012, 03:25 PM   #22
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Tim,

Well clearly I haven't followed this real closely. I'm not surprised given the state of "journalism" in the US today.
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Old 08-03-2012, 04:29 PM   #23
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to ALL,

inasmuch as i've followed the case rather closely, let me offer a bit of OPINION, based on what FEW facts that are INDISPUTABLE:

1. the "main-SLIME media" has LIED from the get-go.
2. NOBODY but Zimmermann KNOWS what happened that night, as NEITHER of the 2 eyewitnesses saw/heard the WHOLE confrontation, though BOTH reported that the "person in the hoodie" was ON TOP & BEATING UP the person on the bottom.
3. Zimmermann was treated by a SFD paramedic for (according to his long-hand notes, posted on the www.):
a. 4 cuts to the rear of the scalp,
b. "moderate" bruising to the rear of the head,
c. a fractured nose,
d. evidence of shock.
and
e. the paramedic insisted that Zimmermann be transported to the local ER for further treatment.
(Zimmermann refused to be transported, as the SPD officers insisted that he go tothe station to be "interviewed".)
4. Zimmermann passed two SPD "voice stress analaysis tests" that night.
5. Zimmermann has since passed 2 polygraph tests, administered by a certified FL State polygrapher
and
6. TWO of the NBC "photojournalists" have been FIRED for "creating a video which is intended to deceive the viewer" AND then lying about making it to the bosses at the news bureau of NBC.

did Zimmermann do the correct or even lawful thing? = i do NOT know, but the facts above SEEM to show that the opinions of the "talking heads" are HIGHLY INACCURATE & that we all will have to hear the EVIDENCE at trial.

yours, sw
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Old 08-03-2012, 05:15 PM   #24
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I've been a ccw instructor for years. With this background, I have to say that Zimmerman is guilty. When he called the police, he was done. He should have gone home. Instead, he continued to follow. Then he exited his vehicle. Those acts legally define him as the aggressor in virtually every state that has CCW permits. In consequence, it was Martin who had "stand your ground" law on his side! All of the other stuff is just so much obfuscation and is irrelevant.
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Old 08-03-2012, 06:45 PM   #25
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I have to say that Zimmerman is guilty.
There was nothing illegal about Zimmermann exiting his vehicle and transiting a public sidewalk; ill advised perhaps but not illegal.

Simply walking toward me, behind me or flanking me on a sidewalk does not give me the right to assault you.

My judgement is bad judgement all the way around, but I think Zimmermann's going to walk.
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Old 08-03-2012, 07:05 PM   #26
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I've been a ccw instructor for years. With this background, I have to say that Zimmerman is guilty. When he called the police, he was done. He should have gone home. Instead, he continued to follow. Then he exited his vehicle. Those acts legally define him as the aggressor in virtually every state that has CCW permits. In consequence, it was Martin who had "stand your ground" law on his side! All of the other stuff is just so much obfuscation and is irrelevant.

Zimmerman showed at the very least, bad judgement.
What --in your opinion -- is Martin's excuse for punching him in the nose, and then kneeling astride him and bashing his head into the cement? If Zimmerman was wrong to leave his car, then Martin had a phone as well and had equal opportunity to call the police and NOT confront Zimmerman.
Just askin' -- I am NOT convinced (as I have said) Zimmerman is the "saint of self-defense" here.
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Old 08-04-2012, 12:45 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimb16 View Post
I've been a ccw instructor for years. With this background, I have to say that Zimmerman is guilty. When he called the police, he was done. He should have gone home. Instead, he continued to follow. Then he exited his vehicle. Those acts legally define him as the aggressor in virtually every state that has CCW permits. In consequence, it was Martin who had "stand your ground" law on his side! All of the other stuff is just so much obfuscation and is irrelevant.
The fact remains, it was a gated community and FL law may be interpreted to define that as private property. In a gated community there are no public roads.
Geoff
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Old 08-16-2012, 03:59 PM   #28
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At that point it was Martin who was defending himself and had no duty to retreat. But you may have a point about the gated community being private property. We will just have to wait and see the results of Zimmerman's Stand-your-ground hearing.
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Old 08-16-2012, 04:14 PM   #29
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At that point it was Martin who was defending himself and had no duty to retreat.
At what point was he attempting to defend himself; when he was pounding Zimmermann's head into the concrete or when he was attempting to remove his weapon from its holster?
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Old 08-17-2012, 03:50 PM   #30
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We'll just have to wait and see how the courts view it. It all depends on their interpretation of their law. I do know that the sponsor of the law said that it was never intended to protect persons who did what Zimmerman did. But then the courts don't always interpret laws as the original sponsors intended.
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Old 08-17-2012, 07:04 PM   #31
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I do know that the sponsor of the law said that it was never intended to protect persons who did what Zimmerman did.
And what, exactly, did Zimmermann do?
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Old 08-17-2012, 08:34 PM   #32
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WaltGraham,

evidently, based on what FEW DOCUMENTED FACTS that have been released by FL Law Enforcement & the Special Prosecuter's office spokeswoman, he defended himself from a physical attack with deadly force.

to KNOW what ACTUALLY happened that bad night, we will all have to wait for the trial to hear the EVIDENCE.

yours, sw
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Old 08-18-2012, 03:57 AM   #33
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The Conventional Wisdom is that Zimmerman continued to follow Williams after being advised to not do so; this is weighing against him as it suggests Zimmerman was acting in an aggressive, irresponsible (for a CCW) manner.
However, there is also evidence to suggest that, despite the media spin, Zimmerman did break off and head back to his vehicle, and Williams came after Zimmerman.
We can only hope that the relevant parties will have full access to evidence and be insulated from the public pressure to hew to one narrative.
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Old 08-18-2012, 05:28 AM   #34
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The Conventional Wisdom is that Zimmerman continued to follow Williams after being advised to not do so....
But this is incorrect. He was not "advised not to do so." He was told "We don't need you to do that," which can be interpreted in a couple different ways I suppose, nearly all of them much milder than being "advised" to do or not do something.

Much less being ordered to do or not do something, which I've also actually heard people say happened....
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Old 08-18-2012, 05:40 AM   #35
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That sounds 'advisory' to me, but definitely not 'commanding'. 'Advice' was the mildest word I could think of at the moment.
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Old 08-18-2012, 06:47 AM   #36
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to ALL,

the person, who the media has REPEATEDLY said (despite their knowledge to the contrary!) that "ordered" Zimmermann to "cease following Martin" was NOT only NOT a police officer BUT was a "part-time employee" of the Sanford City Public Works Department. evidently (from what LITTLE actual info that IS available, the "UNIDENTIFIED EMPLOYEE" was the "part-time dispatcher" for the City Sanitation Services!)- just ONE of the "problems" about what occured that BAD NIGHT was that there was NO police officer "on duty" at the city's commo center, who spoke to Zimmermann & was "on the other end of the line" had NO experience in police or fire communications.
(evidently, the SOLE police officer, who was "on duty" at the commo center that night, had "gone home for supper".)

Friends, i was ONCE (long ago) a small-town city marshal & i KNOW how little town governments "cut corners" to save money (because the city fathers believe "nothing is going to happen anyway") & our city government FREQUENTLY "left me out there without anyone to talk to"! - on one occasion when i DID badly NEED "back-up", i had to go onto 37.260MHZ (the so-called Inter-County frequency) & ask for OUT OF COUNTY HELP, as our city had NOBODY else on duty at all.

i had gone out on a county road to "look into a report of livestock loose on the road" & WALKED INTO "a shooting war" between a group of METH dealers. - THANKFULLY i "got a response from" another county's Constable, a game warden & (believe it or not) a Animal Control officer, who arrived in his own car armed with a Model 94 Winchester .30-30! (the Constable & I were "really glad to see him"!) = OH, the "wonders of" small town LE! ====> the ONLY good thing that happened in that comedy of errors was that "the bad guys" all got arrested (after what seemed like DAYS, 2 TX Highway Patrolmen arrived & things got BETTER quickly!) & NONE of "the good guys" got INJURED/KILLED.

yours, sw

Last edited by stand watie; 08-18-2012 at 06:53 AM. Reason: grammar error!
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Old 05-19-2013, 09:06 PM   #37
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6 ft and 160 lbs IS scrawny.but if things went down like I think they did, he's certainly not a loss and I aint sad about such an outcome, at all.
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Old 05-20-2013, 08:25 AM   #38
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The case continues to grind along:

1 - The state is trying to keep a lot of stuff about Trayvon Martin from coming out in the official trial:

State pushes to keep Trayvon Martin's past out of George Zimmerman trial | News - Home

2 - Experts still disagree on sounds heard on 9/11 call -

Zimmerman case: Experts not sure whose voice on 911 tape | www.palmbeachpost.com

The trial is due to start next month.
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Old 06-10-2013, 12:25 AM   #39
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According to the news, jury selection starts today 10 June 13.

Given the recent revelations, should Zimmerman's attorney subpena the contact records on Travon Martin's cell phone? It is already in evidence.

Geoff
Who figures if the info is out there GRAB IT!
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Old 06-17-2013, 12:52 AM   #40
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There is still the intrusion of the Military and Political Wing of the Nation of Islam, the New Black Panther Party. There is the gun pictured on Martin's website and the Gun a convicted felon from the NBPP tried to sell to a pawn shop in Florida.That case vanished from the Media without a trace.

Geoff
Who still thinks Martin's cell phone records should be subpoenaed from the NSA...it should be an interesting action. But The Truth is Out There (TM)
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