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Old 10-09-2011, 07:18 AM   #1
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Changing base weapon

Folks,

After careful consideration of articles like these,
Bayou Renaissance Man: The changing urban self-defense environment
and recent changes by a couple of very serious folks I know, I'm looking at changing my carry piece from either a Ruger LCP or Kahr 9094N to one of the listed candidates below, this isn't a primary election, just a speculation, interim I have my SWaMPy 9c.

Mfg Name Caliber
S&W SD40 .40 S&W
S&W M&P 40 .40 S&W
S&W M&P 40c .40 S&W
Glock G23 .40 S&W
Glock G27 .40 S&W
SIG Sauer E29R-40-B .40 S&W
SIG Sauer E250C-40-B .40 S&W
Ruger SR40c .40 S&W
Beretta PX4 F Sub .40 S&W
Beretta PX4 Compact .40 S&W

Comments, real experience?

Geoff
Who is curious.
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Old 10-09-2011, 07:27 AM   #2
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Good site, I've bookmarked it for future perusal.

Myself, I've upgunned a bit from my usual carry piece, a j-frame and Seecamp secondary to a gubmint model in .45 or 10mm and the j-frame as a backup.

Although this part of the Shenandoah Valley isn't usually a hotbed of violent activity, my local cop pals are witnessing a sharp spike in minority on white crime.

When the Crossbreed for my M&P arrives, it will become my daily carry.
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Old 10-09-2011, 08:05 AM   #3
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Walt,
I'm one county south of Jacksonville, FL, and there has been considerable local trouble. I work, generally speaking, at two locations with armed security, airports. No CCW there. We had a murder in a spot I pass every week when I check the PO Box. The Sheriff is busting a gut to keep boots on the ground, despite the economy. I live in a low price development full of civil servants, unfortunately a couple of folks by the gate got promoted out of full dress Police Interceptors to plain wrappers, only one left by the gate.

If my 115 gr HPs aren't as good as 155 gr HPs 0.045 inches bigger remains to be seen.

I'm also going to have to change to a Galco classic I suspect.

Geoff
Who is a professional paranoid by trade, don't try this at home kiddies.

Last edited by Skeptic49; 10-30-2011 at 03:34 AM. Reason: Corrected data two single digit errors replaced
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Old 10-09-2011, 12:46 PM   #4
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I have a lot of experience with the M&P and a fair amount with the Ruger. I have no gripes with either although I strongly prefer the grip of the M&P. I'm waiting on a compact M&P but have been carrying the full size a lot lately.

A direct comparison of the two Rugers has been interesting but I prefer the full size gun there too, primarily because of the length of the grip.

I am also a big fan of the .40 and do think diameter is helpful but I think the baseline should be individual accuracy and comfort.
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Old 10-09-2011, 02:31 PM   #5
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If you want a 40 and currently have a M&P9c I would suggest the M&P40 and/or buy a 40 barrel/slide assy and mags for the 9c.

I only own one glock and only own it because the M&P is not made in 10mm yet. I much prefer the grip of the M&P.
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Old 10-10-2011, 04:19 AM   #6
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Carry whatever feels most comfortable and most important what you can use quickly and efficently, i.e. something you will not fumble around with. You usually won't have
the luxury of a "lets see now, pull the weapon, click the safety off, line up a good sight picture, slowly squeeze the trigger keeping a good sight picture, etc, etc". It should be a matter of conditioned reflexes and again, something which will feel the most comfortable and easy to use. I practice with what I think I want to carry and have changed a few times when something felt more comfortable.
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Old 10-10-2011, 04:49 PM   #7
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I'm issued the M&P40, I personally own a M&P9. Frankly, I prefer the 9 for a variety of reasons. Naturally, Safariland apparently discontinued the holster I love

I'll also note that since you're anticipating a "dance with who ya brung" event, round count isn't irrelevant.
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Old 10-10-2011, 07:34 PM   #8
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Interesting...

I Had a qualifying session in August and shot my M&P 9 and really liked it. Recovery seemed quicker and the front sight stayed within the 9 ring most of the time.

I totally agree about round count... we obviously are out of step
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Old 10-11-2011, 08:24 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeptic49 View Post
If my 115 gr HPs aren't as good as 135 gr HPs 0.45 inches bigger remains to be seen.

I'm also going to have to change to a Galco classic I suspect.

Geoff
Who is a professional paranoid by trade, don't try this at home kiddies.
Geoff,

I standardized on the 9mm a while ago. I've had great success with training and daily concealed carry using my Glock 19. For me, it came down to this: a well-placed 9mm round works about as well as any other pistol round...and I can afford to train a heck of a lot more with 9mm ammo than anything else. My carry load is the Winchester Ranger 127-grain T-Series (the +P+ RA9TA loading). Your M&P can digest this ammo with no issues.

For holsters, I've had great success with a company called Raven Concealment Systems. I've been using their flagship model OWB, the Phantom, for over three years now. It's well made, durable, and enables me to effectively conceal even in my off-duty summertime attire of t-shirt and shorts.

Anyway - good luck to you. HTH.

Last edited by ArmyCPT; 10-11-2011 at 08:27 AM.
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Old 06-07-2014, 11:11 AM   #10
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I do not like the .40 S&W because it has limitations. The .45 acp [I feel] is better and there are excellent [better]
rounds available to use. I really like The Golden Sabre 185 gr .45 acp +P for SD carry; they have great ballistics.

I do [also] carry a 1911 10mm and I've found The Double Tap 180 and 200 gr XTP/JHP's to have nice power and
accuracy - KA-BOOM.
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Old 06-08-2014, 01:09 AM   #11
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After renting a series of .40's at a convenient indoor range, I'll stick with the 9mm. FL LEO consensus is .40 or .45 with the FLHP using 45 GAP, but that may change. Geoff Who has a Galco for his Kahr and likes it. Now if I can find one of those parrot / jungle shirts....
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Old 06-08-2014, 07:16 AM   #12
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CDM: why don't you enumerate the "limitations" of the .40 on an objective basis? You don't have to like it but there has to be some reason why approximately 70% of law enforcement agencies use it.
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Old 06-09-2014, 08:33 AM   #13
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The .40 is a nearly ideal law enforcement round. It has most of the expansion of a good .45 ACP and all of the penetration of a 147 gr 9mm; maybe even a little more. For what a cop looks for in a self defense round, it's just ideal.

That said, I've never been a .40 fan for one primary reason. Since the .40 comes in 9mm size pistols, I find that most .40's actually have more recoil than most .45 ACP's. So for me, I just choose the .45 ACP since ammo is cheaper or the same, and generally more available.

But the ballistic performance in the FBI tests have the .40 out-pacing pretty much all the rest. Not that it makes much of a difference, certainly nothing that will ever compensate for a poor shot.

I personally don't really think there's enough difference from 9mm, .40, .45 ACP to even bother. Yeah there are differences, but I just don't see any of those differences making a difference in any shooting. I've treated SO many gun shot victims and they all tend to look the same, and have identical wounds regardless of which cartridge was used.
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Old 06-09-2014, 08:48 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Gibson View Post
I personally don't really think there's enough difference from 9mm, .40, .45 ACP to even bother. Yeah there are differences, but I just don't see any of those differences making a difference in any shooting. I've treated SO many gun shot victims and they all tend to look the same, and have identical wounds regardless of which cartridge was used.
Amen. I have attended enough autopsies and investigated enough shootings to have made up my mind that it ain't what you shoot them with...it's where you shoot them that counts.

Oh, I have my favorites (.45 ACP being one of them), but I really think that any modern centerfire handgun cartridge will work equally well given proper shot placement.
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Old 06-09-2014, 09:09 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeptic49 View Post
Folks,

After careful consideration of articles like these,
Bayou Renaissance Man: The changing urban self-defense environment
and recent changes by a couple of very serious folks I know, I'm looking at changing my carry piece from either a Ruger LCP or Kahr 9094N to one of the listed candidates below, this isn't a primary election, just a speculation, interim I have my SWaMPy 9c.

Mfg Name Caliber
S&W SD40 .40 S&W
S&W M&P 40 .40 S&W
S&W M&P 40c .40 S&W
Glock G23 .40 S&W
Glock G27 .40 S&W
SIG Sauer E29R-40-B .40 S&W
SIG Sauer E250C-40-B .40 S&W
Ruger SR40c .40 S&W
Beretta PX4 F Sub .40 S&W
Beretta PX4 Compact .40 S&W

Comments, real experience?

Geoff
Who is curious.
Geoff,

While I donít share your lever of concern mostly because I live in a VERY rural area, I really like how you think.

Security is always a compromise; otherwise weíd all have a platoon of Marines follow us wherever we go. So you have to match your equipment levels to the threat, and what is socially acceptable. When I did bodyguard work, my life was threat assessment. Iíve gone from being unarmed, to carrying an assault rifle (two big extremes). Other times Iíve carried a J frame in a pocket, two handguns, and there are a few times where I carried a duffel bag wherever I went with an under-folder AK in the duffel due to the threat level. Typically we donít have THAT kind of threat anywhere in the US, not even in Detroit. But when you get to the more urban areas and very high population centers, your threat level changes.

Each person has to do a threat assessment to figure out what is called for in a given situation. And you are doing EXACTLY what youíre supposed to do in a threat assessment. You review what has happened historically in your area, and areas like yours. You investigate the threat, then try to be honest with yourself as you ďthought experimentĒ a few scenarios and how they would play out. Then try to determine whether you would survive those scenarios, and how you survive those scenarios. If one scenario with handgun A has you not making it every time, but you do see a scenario where you survive with handgun B, then itís time to make a change.

You have determined that the threat level has changed enough to warrant making a change in your daily carry equipment. Thatís the way itís done.
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Old 06-09-2014, 09:32 AM   #16
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Geoff,

Of the pistols listed, the only one I haven’t fired is the Beretta, but I’ve handled them and they’re nice.

So you have both full sized and compact pistols listed. I think the first step is deciding whether you want a full sized or a compact.

Glocks – The Glocks you have listed are a Compact and a sub-compact. I personally don’t care for sub-compacts much, and you can read why here: Kevin’s Concealed Carry Mantra: Holster Guns, Pocket Guns… and Nothing in Between | Shooters' Journal

So between those two, I’d take the G-23 every time. I think the 19/23 series is just about the perfect size pistol as a daily carry in an IWB holster. Why S&W, Ruger, and Springfield haven’t made direct comparison pistols is just beyond me. They each make a full size and a semi-sub-compact with 3.5”-ish barrels, none of which seem to handle or point as well as the Glock’s; at least to my eye.

The SD40 and the M&P are both good guns, but I take issue with their trigger design. The two piece trigger really doesn’t add any level of safety as far as I can see so it might as well not have anything. But the two piece trigger just makes me think at some point it’s going to break in half. APEX makes a replacement trigger that has the Glock style dingus in the middle so at least something will have to contact the whole trigger to set the gun off. A full sized M&P with a manual thumb safety is the one I’d choose if you settled on the M&P; again, carried in a World Class IWB holster.

Sig 229 – I just think this is an excellent pistol all the way around. They are superbly accurate and reliable, and very well proven. Ergonomics are good and world class holsters can be had easily for this model.

So from your list my first choice would be the Sig, my second choice would be the M&P .40 with the external thumb safety, and my 3rd choice would be the G23.

Now that being said, you could hand me ANY of those three guns and I wouldn't complain one iota. So go with what you like.

As best I can tell, I see ZERO flaws in the guns you've narrowed it down to. Pick one you like, and that fits your hand well, and I think the rest will take care of itself.
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Old 06-09-2014, 07:46 PM   #17
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I've been involved with the .40 since day one (literally) and in testing I did with my PD there was no real difference in scores with average cops while shooting the same gun in either nine or 40 but qualifying scores were vastly better than their previous revolver scores.

Some guns seem to be different in how they manage recoil so while I agree that felt recoil can be greater it certainly can't be shown in all cases. The major issues with recoil are gun weight, bullet weight and velocity. But sometimes the higher velocity of the nine (since velocity is squared) evens out with the heavier (but slower 40).

I am strongly opposed to sub-compact or micro autos of any caliber because they are harder to shoot well and sometimes less reliable. Most of the time the lighter weight turns out to be irrelevant in real world carry.

But there ain't no such thing as a BEST gun or cartridge except for the one you have when TSHTF .
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Old 06-10-2014, 02:25 AM   #18
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Ideal or not, from what I understand from some other forums, the FBI has begun to de-emphasize the .40 caliber in favor of the 9mm. Training costs and more rapid wear of pistols seem to be the main reason against the 40, and better performing 9mm ammunition seems to be the reason they're willing to go again with the 9.

As for why other agencies went with the 40, I've heard a variety of reasons. The most common is that "We need to be in line with the best thinking," i.e., the FBI. Another interesting reason might have been because of the Assault Weapon Ban limitation of magazines greater than 10 rounds back in the Nineties; pistol companies (maybe only Glock?) would go to the agency and offer to trade straight up for their old 9mm pistols and magazines with brand new 40s. The company could then sell the surplus, grandfathered, pre-ban magazines for enough to make money on the even swap. Of course, cops could legally buy high-capacity magazines, so everyone was happy - except maybe the folks who had to shoot them.
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Old 06-10-2014, 08:12 AM   #19
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The de-emphasis of the .40, if that is indeed happening; may be due to the improved performance of the 9mm. Both 124 +P and now 147 standard pressure have sufficient barrier penetration to pass all of the FBI's tests, and both are reliable expanders. So the 9mm is now getting the job done very well, and often with less recoil and greater magazine capacity.
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Old 03-09-2016, 01:40 AM   #20
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Did not think I would be getting any more handguns after I got my Glock 23 then a good friend had to have it so I started looking for a RE-GLOCK and spotted the Glock 36 in 45 ACP and knew right then that was gonna be the way to go.

I already have a Glock 21 and a 30 I like but this one is thinner yet.
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