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Old 11-26-2009, 05:26 AM   #1
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I loved the M-60

I was among the first U S Soldiers to have one in Berlin. I used them in SE/Asia. i had them in my platoon in Korea. I had many of them in various Scout Platoons. I won the 6th Army Light Machine Gun Champion ship twice and top 5 in the All Army Championships at Ft. Bening.
I've fored damn near every machine gun there is and since I work for Arms Tech as a researcher, automatic weapons trainer, and sales I have access to all of Joe's collection I shoot often. I still regard a properly maintained 'Pig' as the ratty tat tat boom stick of all time.
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Old 11-29-2009, 10:41 AM   #2
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Re: I loved the M-60

IMHO, decent machine guns. I've noticed over the years that the most vocal opponents are usually people with little actual live fire time on the pig. When SoF magazine and Peter Kokalis were together, he hated the M-60. As is usual, he was not a combat arms sort of guy.
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Old 11-29-2009, 05:36 PM   #3
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Re: I loved the M-60

In 1 year, I needed 3 different receivers. Now granted SE Asia isn't the most conducive to maintaining pristine condition of any firearm, but come on! Why not ask those that have extensive experience from 40 years ago? And while I'm sure the latest M-60's were much improved over the originals, the ones I used were PIGS, and that didn't come from endearment.
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Old 12-01-2009, 05:53 PM   #4
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Re: I loved the M-60

Steve, I would never doubt your word, but my NCOs (SEA vets) in the late 70's and through '92 seemed to love the darn things.

I think threefeathers got a tour in SEA as well.

Where's the zoomie?
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Old 12-02-2009, 05:12 PM   #5
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Re: I loved the M-60

Steve, on a different note, do you think another MG would have been better? Given your adverse operating conditions (sounds like you were ACAV or Mech INF), I'm not sure any other design would not have had problems too.
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Old 12-03-2009, 01:18 AM   #6
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Re: I loved the M-60

Yes , I was in the 1/1 ACR based in Chu Lai. I've never looked at it from that perspective and the only thing we could have used would've been some version of the Browning. And that's what we had in the tanks before we went with the Sheridan. I don't recall them failing but they weren't used nearly as hard nor exposed to the elements like the 60 was. For certain I wouldn't experience 3 broken receivers like I did with the 60.
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Old 12-05-2009, 05:12 PM   #7
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Re: I loved the M-60

Steve, I did some checking on broken receivers and you are correct, the early M-60's did have a problem with breaking them, I think it had something to do with the early automatic headspacing. The later M-60's that I had after VN and through the 80's did not have that problem.
I vaguly remember changes in the gun and the way the barrel was changed and clamped in.

On the 30 cals, I also had to carry a 1919 A4 and A6 at various times, and those things were heeeeeeeavy. They also had to be headspaced and timed. I think you guys in tanks had the M-37's which would do a good job of spewing 30 cal (30:06) AP at a pretty good rate which could really tear up a treeline..

Why I think the M-60 might be a good choice now.
1. It is 8 inches shorter that the M-240
2. It is 9 lbs lighter in it's most recent form.
3. The cracking of recievers has been solved.
4. The E-2 version is much lighter than any other full size major caliber machine gun that has reached issue status.

That said, both the M-60 and M-240 are old technology and perhaps something sleek and polymer can replace them both.
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Old 12-06-2009, 01:29 AM   #8
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Re: I loved the M-60

The M-37 was pretty much just a good old Browning slightly modified. Now if you want to talk POS machine guns just mention the M73 to any tanker. Although I have to admit, the light weight of it was in no way onerous carrying it back and forth, back and forth, back and forth to the armorer.
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Old 12-06-2009, 02:12 AM   #9
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Re: I loved the M-60

One reason I have such a dim view of the 60 is my experience with them. Although I will admit under pressure that when they worked, they worked real well. I'd heard that the newer ones were pretty good so I have to ask, if the newer ones were so improved, why did they go to the 240? And guess what? My buddies son is in the combat arms and he's not a great fan of the 240 but loves the 60?!?!?? He cites the weight and the horrible ergonomics for carrying of the 240. He asked about firing the 60 from the shoulder and under the MSA (Marshall Secrecy Act), made him promise never to repeat that, yes you can fire a 60 from the shoulder and yes it is a hoot to do so. Better yet, you can shoot a 60 a la Kirby in Combat with much better effect. And in one of my "experiments", at least one 60 could fire the unsupported weight of around a 300 round belt. That's about 12 feet of linked ammunition if memory serves. In a mad minute we had one night, I stood on the side of the track and shot off a 300 round burst. Ooh baby. I well remember firing the 60 at dusk or in the dark with the barrel glowing red. One time specifically, I remember firing up a hooch, in the middle of a firefight, that was suspected of harboring miscreants. I was beating it up pretty good when of a sudden, tracers were going lower and lower. [a gun shield on a 113 with a 20 can full of linked belts on the floor, really is quite a stable platform,(you could just lean back a little and shoot groups at tracer burn out)] After the fun was over you could see the glowing red barrel drooping quite readily. Now I am certain that none of my 18 yr. old exploits had anything to do with the receivers cracking. But most of the time runaways didn't happen. And most of the time the oil can squirting oil on the barrel trick did not result in fires. Although I seem to recall hearing of rounds exiting the barrel prior to the muzzle due to the aforementioned droop. And I do recall hearing of charbroiled hands because an untrained operator attempted a barrel change without the asbestos mitts.
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Old 12-06-2009, 05:53 AM   #10
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Re: I loved the M-60

I have several nephews and nieces in harms way in the Army and Marine Corps and they are also humping the M240. In each case I firmly believe the M60 would make their daily lives much easier. I contend the M240 was a 'lets be nice to our NATO friends'.
I had the opportunity to fire the Navy adopted M60E2 and it had all of the good features of the A1 plus a shorter and even easier barrel change.
Yes, a big ouch to changing the barrel without the A glove. But the barrel change of the 1919 series, zowie.
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Old 12-06-2009, 08:10 AM   #11
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Re: I loved the M-60

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Thompson
Where's the zoomie?

Are you talking about this Zoomie?

Me, a Security Police armorer sometime in 1987 or 1988.

I also used it for a time while protecting nukes.

(Oh, that is Zoomie with a capital Z )
Attached Images
File Type: bmp Me & the M60.bmp (762.7 KB, 237 views)
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Old 12-06-2009, 04:56 PM   #12
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Re: I loved the M-60

Nope, not you Chili ( ) - rather a certain RMSGT who had the ill luck to actually make negative comments on the "pig" in another thread. He needs to report post-haste to defend his uninformed bashing.
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Old 12-07-2009, 10:58 AM   #13
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Re: I loved the M-60

FWIW: The M60E2 was the coaxial MG variant. It was stomped hard by the FN MAG during US Army testing in the mid-1970s that resulted in the adoption of the latter as the M240.

US Navy Special Warfare units and the USMC took to the M60E3 in the '80s. However, in USMC service, the M60E3 fell flat on its face in Desert Storm. There was a push for its replacement almost immediately. Depending upon who you ask, the US Army Rangers had already approached FNMI about supplying conversion kits to turn the coaxial M240 into an infantry variant. Someone in the USMC* figured out that the Army had more M240 in inventory than they were authorized. As a result, political strings were pulled to have these extra M240 declared as surplus so that the USMC could then poach them for next to nothing. The resulting conversions became the M240G. The only major cost to the USMC was for the conversion kits. The Big Army ultimately decided to run a shootout to pick a new infantry MG. Saco submitted the M60E4 and FN offered the M240E4. The latter won, and was adopted as the M240B. NSW converted their M60 and M60E3 into the M60E4, which became known as the Mk 43 Mod 0. However, even they grew disenchanted the design. This led to the adoption of the FN Mk 48 Mod 0, a 7.62mm NATO variant of the 5.56mm FN Minimi family.

*LTC Dave Lutz (USMC, Ret.) has since claimed credit for this. During his career, Lutz also shepherded the M16A1 PIP into the M16A2. Lutz is now VP of Military Operation at Knight's Armament.
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Old 12-07-2009, 01:50 PM   #14
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Re: I loved the M-60

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Thompson
Nope, not you Chili ( ) - rather a certain RMSGT who had the ill luck to actually make negative comments on the "pig" in another thread. He needs to report post-haste to defend his uninformed bashing.
Yeah, I figured it was him. Just thought I'd razz ya a little!

Where in SC are you? I am in the Charleston area.
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Old 12-07-2009, 05:03 PM   #15
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Re: I loved the M-60

Columbia.

Interestingly enough, the M240 was designated as a Medium MG in the FMs I saw at FT Benning last year. Not sure if it was due to the weight or a MTOE plan to get a assistant gunner assigned. In the '80's, the M60 (designated a light MG) was authorized but in the mech units, no machine gunner was authorized by MTOE. So the M60s were manned, but there was no corresponding plus up in personnel.
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Old 12-07-2009, 06:36 PM   #16
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Re: I loved the M-60

I still like the M60
But perhaps what is needed is a replacement for both.
Hmmmmmm what about an MG-42

Some of you guys are engineers, get to it.
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Old 12-08-2009, 07:04 PM   #17
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Re: I loved the M-60

When I was a SP, we were authorized an a-gunner. Even better, I actually had one assigned every time we went into the field. I left that job in Dec 95 and they switched over the to M240 sometime after that.
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Old 12-09-2009, 06:22 AM   #18
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Re: I loved the M-60

Well, the Germans used the MG42 chambered in 7.62 NATO (MG3 IIRC) when I was stationed there - '86 to '89. We fired the MG3 for our German shooting badge competition. The rate of fire was very high - like 900 (+) rounds per minute. Be great for point targets. Interestingly, the belts were not disintegrating, rather a solid metal link construction.
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Old 12-09-2009, 01:50 PM   #19
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Re: I loved the M-60

I would have liked to have shot one of those. 900 RPM sounds like a lot of fun, especially when it belongs to Uncle Sam
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Old 12-18-2009, 11:21 AM   #20
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Re: I loved the M-60

Threefeathers should start buying stocks and bonds. As he discussed:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009 ... ght-m240l/


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