Primers

blusteel · 02-09-2007, 10:32 PM

I'm fairly new to "Long Range" -> (beyond 5oo yd.) shooting. Thanks to a friends' accommodation thereof, I can begin a new realm of challenge and self - disgust.

Quote:

A recent
batch of match-grade ammo (about 300,000 rounds) was loaded from the same
lots of cases, bullets and powder. Neck tension was quite uniform. Primer
pockets were not uniformed nor were flash holes drilled to the same size.
Bullet runout peaked at about .004-in. But several lots of primers were
used. Some loaded lots of this ammo would shoot 2.8-in., 20-shot groups
at 600 yards. Other lots would shoot 20-in. 20-shot groups at the same
range. The difference was in the primer lots; some were very uniform,
others were not.

BB

This, (Second Article - Paragraph 10) if indeed authentic, poses an extraartificial deficiency that I'd rather not welcome ! Otherwise - WTF Are We Doing Out Here ? ! :P

blusteel · 02-09-2007, 11:17 PM

Additional Stuff - FWIW ->Here

Charlie Petty · 02-10-2007, 07:36 AM

I am not a long range shooter but have frequently compared primers in handgun, benchrest and varmint loads.

The only solid conclusion I have come to is that each situation becomes a law unto itself.

I have seen situations were "match" primers were far more accurate than standard and then seen the reverse.

It is true that primers can vary from lot to lot just as powders and in critical applications that can be a major variable but in a system where every component is a variable it is very hard to say which one deserves worry.

Many matches publish lists of equipment and loads used by competitors and these can be very informative. As much as I hate herd instinct stuff if the majority are using the same component there may be a reason.

Shooting is one of those things where only a large number of data points- and I mean hundreds- can really inspire confidence that a conclusion is valid so frequently shooters end up chasing their tails because of one five shot group.

I think all shooters who aspire to serious accuracy should be required to take statistics 101 and learn about the bloody bell curve.

USSR · 02-10-2007, 05:53 PM

blu,

Yeah, Bart Bobbitt's posts will provide you with a bad case of sensory overload.

My advice: pick a good brand of primers (Fed 210M's or Russian), and then deal with all the other challenges you have in load development.

Don

Tailgunner · 02-18-2007, 08:31 PM

Blu,
Had the experince once of "bad primers" that played havoc with inconsistent elevation at 600 yrds. Did not really notice it at shorter ranges. I think what I learned from that was to buy primers that are "fresh" or as close to new as possible. Guilty primers had been lugged around in the back of a van for some time before I bought them ( at a great price) at a gunshow.
Recently my BIL loaded some ammo with Win. WLR primers he got "on Sale" that might have been trade-ins. They appeared discolored and stained compared to different lot of WLR's I had. He let his son shoot them at the Match resulting in a last place finish, , which has become the source of a joke we now have about the son being the ammo tester.
I store all my primers in Ammo cans . I am still loading ammo from several cases of Fed 210M that I bought in 94 during the great primer scare. They will still produce sd's of < 10. I also bought several cases of Win WLR at that time , but chose to shoot them first as they were slightly cheaper. I could never tell the difference in performance either on targets or through the chrono.

blusteel · 02-19-2007, 08:11 AM

Some good info here - as well as practice.

Buy the Bulk from the same lot numbers .

Looks like the best way to start, for serious load uniformity.

Still winnin' with that "SPR" A 1, there Gunner ? What glass did you decide on ?

- Rob

TexIndian · 02-20-2007, 04:31 AM

I've got to where I always buy primers by the case of 5,000 at least. That way I'll get consistent results, even if they are consistently bad.

blusteel · 02-20-2007, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexIndian

I've got to where I always buy primers by the case of 5,000 at least. That way I'll get consistent results, even if they are consistently bad.

Which begs me to ask these questions / comment -

I'm well aware that primers are mfged one "pot" at a time. How much explosive putty is that ? a pound or so ?

IIRC - these batches are similar to - if you were to put together a cake mix in a bowl. How in the heck does the assembler monitor / measure equal volume for each cup ??

What greater attention do the benchrest primers receive on the assembly line ?

What are e- tronix Rem Primers ? Are they percussion ignited ?

Tailgunner · 02-20-2007, 08:59 PM

Blu,
Finally changed glass to a VX-III 8.5 X 25 50mm. Super nice side focus , with target dot. Took it to the range the morning of the last match and zero'd. That afternoon took 2nd for group and 3rd for score. Nasty switching wind got me a couple of times. BIL took 1st group score over me by 1/16th of an inch ( this was 400yrd match) Dude 2 points over crossfired on his target. Hit next to his furthermost left shot. My challenge that it moved his bullet hole closer to center fell on deaf ears ( drowned out by the laughter)

I think this will work out as I can see my bullet holes at 400 without using the spotting scope. Can keep it focused on the mirage.

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02-09-2007, 11:17 PM	#2
blusteel Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 3,449	Additional Stuff - FWIW ->Here

02-10-2007, 07:36 AM	#3
Charlie Petty Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 7,055	I am not a long range shooter but have frequently compared primers in handgun, benchrest and varmint loads. The only solid conclusion I have come to is that each situation becomes a law unto itself. I have seen situations were "match" primers were far more accurate than standard and then seen the reverse. It is true that primers can vary from lot to lot just as powders and in critical applications that can be a major variable but in a system where every component is a variable it is very hard to say which one deserves worry. Many matches publish lists of equipment and loads used by competitors and these can be very informative. As much as I hate herd instinct stuff if the majority are using the same component there may be a reason. Shooting is one of those things where only a large number of data points- and I mean hundreds- can really inspire confidence that a conclusion is valid so frequently shooters end up chasing their tails because of one five shot group. I think all shooters who aspire to serious accuracy should be required to take statistics 101 and learn about the bloody bell curve.

02-10-2007, 05:53 PM	#4
USSR Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Finger Lakes Region of NY Posts: 763	blu, Yeah, Bart Bobbitt's posts will provide you with a bad case of sensory overload. My advice: pick a good brand of primers (Fed 210M's or Russian), and then deal with all the other challenges you have in load development. Don

02-18-2007, 08:31 PM	#5
Tailgunner Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: outside Atlanta Posts: 642	Blu, Had the experince once of "bad primers" that played havoc with inconsistent elevation at 600 yrds. Did not really notice it at shorter ranges. I think what I learned from that was to buy primers that are "fresh" or as close to new as possible. Guilty primers had been lugged around in the back of a van for some time before I bought them ( at a great price) at a gunshow. Recently my BIL loaded some ammo with Win. WLR primers he got "on Sale" that might have been trade-ins. They appeared discolored and stained compared to different lot of WLR's I had. He let his son shoot them at the Match resulting in a last place finish, , which has become the source of a joke we now have about the son being the ammo tester. I store all my primers in Ammo cans . I am still loading ammo from several cases of Fed 210M that I bought in 94 during the great primer scare. They will still produce sd's of < 10. I also bought several cases of Win WLR at that time , but chose to shoot them first as they were slightly cheaper. I could never tell the difference in performance either on targets or through the chrono.

02-19-2007, 08:11 AM	#6
blusteel Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 3,449	Some good info here - as well as practice. Buy the Bulk from the same lot numbers . Looks like the best way to start, for serious load uniformity. Still winnin' with that "SPR" A 1, there Gunner ? What glass did you decide on ? - Rob

02-20-2007, 04:31 AM	#7
TexIndian Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 82	I've got to where I always buy primers by the case of 5,000 at least. That way I'll get consistent results, even if they are consistently bad.

02-20-2007, 08:59 PM	#9
Tailgunner Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: outside Atlanta Posts: 642	Blu, Finally changed glass to a VX-III 8.5 X 25 50mm. Super nice side focus , with target dot. Took it to the range the morning of the last match and zero'd. That afternoon took 2nd for group and 3rd for score. Nasty switching wind got me a couple of times. BIL took 1st group score over me by 1/16th of an inch ( this was 400yrd match) Dude 2 points over crossfired on his target. Hit next to his furthermost left shot. My challenge that it moved his bullet hole closer to center fell on deaf ears ( drowned out by the laughter) I think this will work out as I can see my bullet holes at 400 without using the spotting scope. Can keep it focused on the mirage.