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Old 07-16-2009, 08:16 AM   #41
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Re: Your Thoughts Please on SHTF Weapon

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You gotta carry a toothbrush if you carry a revolver to get under the extractor star. They don't like sand either. If that is all you got, that is the game and you gotta make do. I would tie a piece of mason's twine in a loop and carry the toothbrush around my neck. The easiest revolver to take down to clean the "innards" is a Ruger Security/Speed/GP series.
And a semiauto pistol (1911 pattern, Beretta, Glock) is easier yet.
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Old 07-16-2009, 08:26 AM   #42
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Re: Your Thoughts Please on SHTF Weapon

Get one of those fold-up traveler's toothbrushes and just toss it in any pocket.

Crud under the extractor star is an extremely common (routine, even) problem with .22 revolvers but I can't recall ever having it happen with a centerfire. I MIGHT have had ONE case of it, I just can't recall it specifically.
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Old 07-16-2009, 08:25 PM   #43
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Re: Your Thoughts Please on SHTF Weapon

I had a yugo SKS, and that thing was stone cold reliable. I think I may have cleaned it a total of 2 or 3 times in the 2k I put thru it, and it wasn't really because it needed it. It was one of the few guns I've owned that never gave me any kind of problem. I'd field on in a heartbeat if it came down to it, and maintaining it wouldn't be my foremost thought. And if my choice had to be a bolt action, I'd take my Enfield No.4 Mk1.

Unfortunately, my SKS is now my good friend's SKS as I had to sell a very reliable rifle to buy parts for an unreliable car. So like a previous poster, I'm kind of left with what I have on hand. Which is alot of semi-auto stuff. Its just the way its worked out. If there was little or no merit to an autoloading battle rifle, all the world's armies would be using bolt actions. Granted, the bolt action is still king in sniper rifles, but I'm not a sniper. And if things turn ugly, I'm not purposely going out looking for a fight. At the very least, its a waste of ammo. At the very most, I might not make it back. But the thing of it is, most fights would occurr at close range anyway. Which would negate the need for a 500yd rifle. Plus, you're not truly defending yourself at that range. So I could get by with just about anything I already own as it stands, by itself. What it comes down to is you're going to have to maintain any gear you're staking your life on, be it bolt, break, pump, lever, or semi. I wouldn't think one is going to function any better broken than any of the others, so you're really screwed no matter what you have if its broken, ya know? I'm not trying to be a jerk at all, and I'm sorry if I came across that way.
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Old 07-17-2009, 12:32 AM   #44
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Re: Your Thoughts Please on SHTF Weapon

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Originally Posted by Hummer
One thing seems to be overlooked is maintenance material. Semi autos are like women. They don't like to be dirty and they don't like to be mistreated or they will eventually shut down. The carbon generated on firing will harden up and then you have big problems.
If you are going to rely on a semi auto better plan on patches, (lots of them) cleaning rod, brushes and bore cleaner and weapon lube. There are two things that can double for both cleaner/lube and that is Ed's Red you make yourself and Mobil 1 synthetic motor oil.
Yes I am familiar with CLP and would not use it on anything.
Everything you just said is a problem with every gun, of every style ever made. Revolver, semi-auto, bolt action or pump shotgun. Patches? Who needs those, we have bore snakes now. Carbon? Easy fix, stop dumping lube all over everything, so that it doesn't collect carbon, OR turn into it.

Don't like CLP? Oh well, every weapon system I used in the Marines LOVED it. I'd rather take a red hot 240 Gulf's opinion on effective lubrication over anyone else.
You make it try to sound like Semi auto's are a burden, when in fact they are not. You don't even hit on Semi's biggest weakness of lost or damaged magazines.
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Old 07-28-2009, 04:31 AM   #45
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Re: Your Thoughts Please on SHTF Weapon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madcap72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hummer
One thing seems to be overlooked is maintenance material. Semi autos are like women. They don't like to be dirty and they don't like to be mistreated or they will eventually shut down. The carbon generated on firing will harden up and then you have big problems.
If you are going to rely on a semi auto better plan on patches, (lots of them) cleaning rod, brushes and bore cleaner and weapon lube. There are two things that can double for both cleaner/lube and that is Ed's Red you make yourself and Mobil 1 synthetic motor oil.
Yes I am familiar with CLP and would not use it on anything.
Everything you just said is a problem with every gun, of every style ever made. Revolver, semi-auto, bolt action or pump shotgun. Patches? Who needs those, we have bore snakes now. Carbon? Easy fix, stop dumping lube all over everything, so that it doesn't collect carbon, OR turn into it.

Don't like CLP? Oh well, every weapon system I used in the Marines LOVED it. I'd rather take a red hot 240 Gulf's opinion on effective lubrication over anyone else.
You make it try to sound like Semi auto's are a burden, when in fact they are not. You don't even hit on Semi's biggest weakness of lost or damaged magazines.
he did, though. He'd mentioned that M1 clips haven't been manufactured in the US for some time.

I think everyone might be overlooking a big part in all of this; what you start out with might not be what you finish with. IE, the liberator pistol of WW2. The idea you could use something small to get yourself something bigger. Or the simple fact of the matter, if someone attacks you, if you turn the tables, you harvest his gear.

Things break, so its a good idea to have spare parts. But its also a good idea to have back-up gear just in case. I mean, I'm not at all confident enough to say I could slap in a spare bolt in a gunfight should my extractor break on my M1. I'd just have to pull a pistol, or run like hell, and know at the very least, should I not make it, that M1 isn't going to be of any use to the jerk who killed me. But parts are like ammo, the less you use the gun, the better shape they'll be in. Use it when you have to, and you should be fine. But just keep in mind in a bad situation, all you're doing is buying time.
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Old 07-28-2009, 12:59 PM   #46
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Re: Your Thoughts Please on SHTF Weapon

Garand clips are still available, and still fairly cheap. You don't have to throw them away, either—they last quite a long time, load after load.

My BOB contains one Garand bolt, complete and assembled, and one complete Springfield bolt that headspaces properly in both of my '03s. There's also 10 empty Garand clips, and 20 empty Springfield clips.

I suppose that I could replace a Springfield bolt in the middle of a fire-fight, but I'd rather just retreat and fight another day. That's why I carry a pistol, after all.
I know how to replace a Garand bolt from the top, without disassembling the rifle at all, but I know I couldn't do it in a hurry or in a panic. Retreat is, here again, my better option.
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Old 07-28-2009, 03:01 PM   #47
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Re: Your Thoughts Please on SHTF Weapon

roger that about the clips. I reuse mine, but I look at it like this; that things being forcefully ejected out of the gun and into the undergrowth/leaves/brush/ what have you, your chances of finding them aren't great. Especially if you got some cretin firing at you. I've nearly lost them at the range where there isn't places for them to hide. The moral of the story is you're going to lose a couple at some point.

I'm liking the M1 carbine more and more for most things. Truth of the matter is its damn near perfect for close quarter engagements. I don't need a rifle to reach out 500yrds. At that range, you've have to have some experience shooting long range to make the shot. I'm confident most people aren't that good. And at that range, its easier to pass by unnoticed. The carbine is pretty light, ammo is light, and despite what people say, it is fairly powerful. Its got more energy than a .44mag, and its alot easier to hit what you're aiming at. Plus, its small enough to whack small game, and not blow it to smithereens, but you can still take a deer with it if you know what you're doing. The only downside is ammo. The upside would be that since it uses straightwall cases, you could pack a Lee hand press, and some components, and reload at camp. hmmm... come to think of it, that idea's not aweful.
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Old 07-28-2009, 06:18 PM   #48
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Re: Your Thoughts Please on SHTF Weapon

Lots of people think that it'd be a good idea to carry some sort of reloading equipment around with them, if the SHTF.
I strongly disagree. Here's why:
• You can carry already loaded ammunition instead. Which would do better for you in an emergency: a reloading set, or already loaded ammunition that weighs just as much as the reloading stuff does?
• Where are you going to get replacement bullets, powder, and primers when the SHTF? OK, so you're going to carry them, right? So see my point immediately above.
• Of all the most sensitive explosives man has invented, the cartridge primer takes the prize. Do you really want to walk around, and get shot at, with a box of primers in your backpack?

If you still want to reload, then stash a complete loading set, and supplies, somewhere safe. Don't try to walk around with it.

After a short-duration firefight, I would expect to be able to return and find at least 50% of my ejected Garand clips. But I would not depend upon that. To me, any clips I do find would be pure lagniappe.
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Old 07-28-2009, 07:18 PM   #49
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Re: Your Thoughts Please on SHTF Weapon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cap'n Dex
... The upside would be that since it uses straightwall cases, you could pack a Lee hand press, and some components, and reload at camp. hmmm... come to think of it, that idea's not aweful.
30 Carbine ammo actually has a slight taper to it. I don't know if it's enough to affect what kind of reloading equipment is used on it (I don't reload) but ... just to pick nits here, it really isn't "straight wall."
Like Steve though, I'd really prefer to have the ammo rather than the equipment to lug around.
If I had some sort of secure base, reloading equipment would be OK.
Depending on how intense the SHTF is I am not sure I'd be really worried about collecting up used brass though .....
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Old 07-29-2009, 04:29 AM   #50
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Re: Your Thoughts Please on SHTF Weapon

fur traders/ mountain men, and such carried flash powder, percussion caps along with their regular powder. Some even cast their own bullets. All of em ran a great risk of meeting up with dangerous elements. Its not ideal, but you do what you have to sometimes. I don't want to go where I don't have a stable shelter. Ideally, I don't want to leave home. I really wouldn't have to. I live in the woods.

I'd rather have the stuff and not need it than need it and not have it. But then again, I'm forgetting my own hypothesis, you may not finish with what you started with. Everything is borrowed, including time.
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Old 07-29-2009, 07:16 AM   #51
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Re: Your Thoughts Please on SHTF Weapon

[center:2u1flt3w]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cap'n Dex
fur traders/ mountain men, and such carried flash powder, percussion caps along with their regular powder. Some even cast their own bullets. All of em ran a great risk of meeting up with dangerous elements. Its not ideal, but you do what you have to sometimes. I don't want to go where I don't have a stable shelter. Ideally, I don't want to leave home.
[/center:2u1flt3w]

True, but fabricating pure lead balls for your Kentucky Long Rifle is a tad different than what's needed to clean, resize, neck cartridges & reload them with modern propellants.
In point of fact, when Winchester came out with the 1873 rifle, they came out with a reloading tool that helped people reload the cartridges and that helped boost sales. But it wasn't too hard to figure out what comprised a 40 grain BP charge. Reloading today is a little more complicated.
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Old 07-29-2009, 05:13 PM   #52
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Re: Your Thoughts Please on SHTF Weapon

Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyGunn
[center:34fuzvey]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cap'n Dex
fur traders/ mountain men, and such carried flash powder, percussion caps along with their regular powder. Some even cast their own bullets. All of em ran a great risk of meeting up with dangerous elements. Its not ideal, but you do what you have to sometimes. I don't want to go where I don't have a stable shelter. Ideally, I don't want to leave home.
[/center:34fuzvey]

True, but fabricating pure lead balls for your Kentucky Long Rifle is a tad different than what's needed to clean, resize, neck cartridges & reload them with modern propellants.
In point of fact, when Winchester came out with the 1873 rifle, they came out with a reloading tool that helped people reload the cartridges and that helped boost sales. But it wasn't too hard to figure out what comprised a 40 grain BP charge. Reloading today is a little more complicated.
true, but really a workshop is a workshop, be it in my ideal space in the basement, or at a kitchen table somewhere other than home, using a hand press. The process is the same whether using a hand press, or bench-mounted press. Same dies, scale, etc. Yes, it can be done, even if it is a PITA. But if I have to move to a different house, I'd like to have something to make more ammo with by reloading my empties. That doesn't bother me. What does bother me is running out. But that problem can be solved by taking other folk's gear who left this life before I did, and using that till its gone. After that, throw it aside, find another. Same with broken gear.
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Old 07-29-2009, 10:33 PM   #53
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Re: Your Thoughts Please on SHTF Weapon

Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyGunn
[center:1my25i2p]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cap'n Dex
fur traders/ mountain men, and such carried flash powder, percussion caps along with their regular powder. Some even cast their own bullets. All of em ran a great risk of meeting up with dangerous elements. Its not ideal, but you do what you have to sometimes. I don't want to go where I don't have a stable shelter. Ideally, I don't want to leave home.
[/center:1my25i2p]

True, but fabricating pure lead balls for your Kentucky Long Rifle is a tad different than what's needed to clean, resize, neck cartridges & reload them with modern propellants.
In point of fact, when Winchester came out with the 1873 rifle, they came out with a reloading tool that helped people reload the cartridges and that helped boost sales. But it wasn't too hard to figure out what comprised a 40 grain BP charge. Reloading today is a little more complicated.
Because powderhorns are so much easier to use than pocket electronic scales? The loading process is the same. Some rounds would be harder to reload, some no harder than black powder. Casting bullets is pretty easy, lead can be found or recovered (much like the buffalo hunters carved out their ball used to take game). Cleaning the casings? How clean do they need to be? As long as they are moderately clean with the flash hole open, no worries.

Would it be easier to carry loaded ammunition? Of course. Is it easy to field load metallic cartridges in the field? Yes it is. Look at what the Vietnamese did!
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Old 07-29-2009, 10:38 PM   #54
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Re: Your Thoughts Please on SHTF Weapon

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Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1
• Of all the most sensitive explosives man has invented, the cartridge primer takes the prize. Do you really want to walk around, and get shot at, with a box of primers in your backpack?

I don't know, I ran around in Iraq with a pack full of blasting caps, det cord, time fuse, and C-4 getting shot at, and it turned out all right.

I suppose if one was being shot at though, they should be moving to seek cover, not walk around back pack or not.
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Old 07-29-2009, 11:17 PM   #55
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Re: Your Thoughts Please on SHTF Weapon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madcap72
...I don't know, I ran around in Iraq with a pack full of blasting caps, det cord, time fuse, and C-4 getting shot at, and it turned out all right.
I suppose if one was being shot at though, they should be moving to seek cover, not walk around back pack or not.
Primers is primers.
I was trying to make a particular point, which you've reinforced: Maybe primers (of any kind) aren't the best choice of backpack contents.
You were required to do it by your profession, and you were constantly (and expertly) seeking cover; but a civilian, with neither the professional requirement nor the training, and wanting to survive the day, should probably find another means of resupply.
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Old 07-30-2009, 04:39 AM   #56
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Re: Your Thoughts Please on SHTF Weapon

Other means of resupply would be the dead folks who would have their stuff taken. .223 ammo, I don't worry about .223 ammo because everyone in the world has a .223, and I'm sure they're be plenty (at first) rambo wanna-bes with their .223's, and they'll end up giving em up the hard way. .30carbine may be a little harder to come by. I've resolved to get another 500-1krds of .30carbine. I wouldn't consider myself "set", but I wouldn't consider myself lost, either. If I have to reload to keep using what I want to use, so be it. I've accepted that. But ultimately, I know where's a zillion different factors that come into play that can and will change everything I can plan for.
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Old 07-30-2009, 07:15 AM   #57
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Re: Your Thoughts Please on SHTF Weapon

[center:fiv7ug12]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Madcap72
Because powderhorns are so much easier to use than pocket electronic scales? The loading process is the same. Some rounds would be harder to reload, some no harder than black powder. Casting bullets is pretty easy, lead can be found or recovered (much like the buffalo hunters carved out their ball used to take game). Cleaning the casings? How clean do they need to be? As long as they are moderately clean with the flash hole open, no worries.

Would it be easier to carry loaded ammunition? Of course. Is it easy to field load metallic cartridges in the field? Yes it is. Look at what the Vietnamese did!
[/center:fiv7ug12]



I didn't say it couldn't be done. I myself would prefer modern arms. Sure you could run out of ammo. You could run out of black powder. Anything you "could" run out of, you "could" run out of at a really, really, bad time.
Six of one, half dozen of the other, I guess.
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Old 07-30-2009, 10:48 AM   #58
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Re: Your Thoughts Please on SHTF Weapon

...Of course, if you built a kiln and made charcoal, and lived near a source of sulfur, and always urinated in the very same place (and were patient enough to wait for the nitrates to precipitate out), you could make your own black powder from "scratch"...if you remember the formula.
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Old 07-30-2009, 03:55 PM   #59
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Re: Your Thoughts Please on SHTF Weapon

Oh, I know the formula ... I remember that STAR TREK episode where Kirk fought the lizard guy on that barren planetoid!!
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Old 07-30-2009, 05:47 PM   #60
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Re: Your Thoughts Please on SHTF Weapon

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Originally Posted by TommyGunn
Oh, I know the formula ... I remember that STAR TREK episode where Kirk fought the lizard guy on that barren planetoid!!

LOL, at Vasquez Rocks County Park, Los Angeles County, CA...The rock is now called "Gorn Rock".
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