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Old 03-16-2008, 06:55 PM   #1
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357 or 45?

I was reading an article from Mas Ayoob where he said that the most plentiful man stopping ammo in a Katrina etc type of sitn would be .45 acp ball (if I'm not mistaken). So, I was thinking to myself, the sw 625 would be nice to get. Sturdier, fewer moving parts. However, you can only load that with moon clips which tend to bend, which would not be a good thing in an shtf sitn, right?

So, I searched under "handgun" in this forum and saw that a number of folks were saying .357. In which case, would a gp100 be a better way to go? No moon clip necessary, cheaper, gun more available, etc?

What would the availability of .357 ball be like compared to .45 acp in a shtf sitn? Would .45 long colt be readily available?

Thanks.
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Old 03-16-2008, 07:14 PM   #2
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Re: 357 or 45?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nice_Jewish_Rifle
. . . What would the availability of .357 ball be like compared to .45 acp in a shtf sitn? Would .45 long colt be readily available? . . .
357 mag with 125 grain JHPs has a wonderful record as a manstopper. A 357 gun can also shoot 38 Special, and even 38 S&W I think. Better check that last one. This doubles or triples the rounds available in stores. Don't know why you would want ball, other than practice, or to reduce cost.

As for comparing rounds of 45 ACP with rounds of 357 ball ... First of all, 45ACP is a caliber, not a bullet. 357 ball is a round in 357 magnum caliber, with a ball (FMJ) bullet. Did you mean 45ACP ball vs. 357 ball? Again, for personal defense, I suggest JHP or other expanding bullets.

As for availability of either or other calibers with various bullets, I suggest going to several, non-affiliated, local gun stores, and compare the quantities of ammo they have on display. While they may have a lot more "in back," or none at all in back, the relative display quantity of the various rounds of interest should give an idea of relative availability.

Incidentally, you don't need moon clips for most of these calibers, but may want them for 45 long colts, depending on the gun(s) you buy. Also, most moon clips are really quite tough, and liable to bend only under severe mistreatment.

You might also want to indicate your general geographic area, so that folks familiar with it can chime in on local availability of ammo.
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Old 03-16-2008, 07:27 PM   #3
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Re: 357 or 45?

Thanks for the quick reply, BM.

I'm in the Chicagoland area.

yeah, sorry for the confusion re caliber, bullet, etc.

What I remember re Mas writing was that in a shtf sitn the most readily available serious defense caliber would be .45acp ball. But, it seems that there are a lot of .357 handguns out there, maybe more in terms of of revolvers.

So, I wouldn't necess need moonclips with a .45 acp revolver? Headspacing wouldn't be an issue? Also, I assume extraction would be more of a prob overall vs. the .357?

One last question: the .357 ball round would have more a tendency to overpenetrate than the .45 acp ball, right?

Both would tend to smack down an opponent about as well, I'm assuming? Or is .45acp ball better?

Okay, one more question: would .45 lc be the least available cartridge compared to the other two?

I'm just trying to figure out which revolver is most reasonably priced, which has the edge in stopping power, availability of ammo, less danger to innocent bystanders.



Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMike
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nice_Jewish_Rifle
. . . What would the availability of .357 ball be like compared to .45 acp in a shtf sitn? Would .45 long colt be readily available? . . .
357 mag with 125 grain JHPs has a wonderful record as a manstopper. A 357 gun can also shoot 38 Special, and even 38 S&W I think. Better check that last one. This doubles or triples the rounds available in stores. Don't know why you would want ball, other than practice, or to reduce cost.
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Old 03-16-2008, 08:08 PM   #4
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Re: 357 or 45?

I may have typed faster than I thought.
Another good reason to keep your, no, my finger off the trigger ... and the keyboard ... until you are sure of your target.

There are rimmed, semi-rimmed, and rimless cartridges. Most revolvers are designed for rimmed rounds. A revolver in 45ACP would probably need moon clips, and a 45 long colt probably would not. The long colt, IF I recall correctly is rimmed, while the 45ACP is rimless. I think that I have read of a revolver that could directly handle 9mm, another rimless round, by having a fancy cylinder. Believe it was a Ruger. Don't know how it worked out, don't think it is in their current catalog. In any case, the rear end of the cylinder must be designed and built for specific cartridges ... and may or may not be designed to work with a "moon clip."

With the proper gun and ammo, moon clips can be pre-loaded with the correct rounds, and then will load rapidly into the proper cylinder. The fired moon clips and cases can be ejected quite rapidly. However, loading the moon clips with live rounds, and unloading fired cartridge cases from the moon clips is quite slow, and needs to be done when safely away from the scene of combat. In general, moon clips are too expensive and too hard to get to trash them after practice, and should be policed up for re-use after you practice or win an encounter.

45acp ball, and 38spec ball, are commonly available in "White Box" (relatively inexpensive factory rounds) and military surplus versions. Perfectly adequate for practice, may penetrate some targets while HP, JHP, or similar rounds might stay within the target.

But you just can't make blanket statements about penetration of any round, and which is best. If Massad Ayoob makes an unequivocal statement about the effectiveness of a specific round, I will believe it. Absent a quoted and sourced Ayoob proclamation, there are dozens, perhaps hundreds, of articles, books, and web postings re "penetration," "overpenetration," etc. Google around gun sources. It is a complex subject, and there are a lot of real experts here on the EOTAC forum, who are FAR better able than I to provide answers to your questions.
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Old 03-16-2008, 09:25 PM   #5
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Re: 357 or 45?

[center:11jiqugw]
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMike
... A 357 gun can also shoot 38 Special, and even 38 S&W I think. Better check that last one. This doubles or triples the rounds available in stores. Don't know why you would want ball, other than practice, or to reduce cost. ...
[/center:11jiqugw]


Uh, I think .38 S&W is an old style heel type round and will not fit in a .38 SP. Or .357 for that matter.
The .38SP can fire .38 Long Colt and .38 Short Colt. These are also archaic rounds and some of the ones I have are made for cowboy sports shooting and people who like old guns and actually are loaded with blackpowder (it was their original load -- as well as the .38 Special's). You probably won't find these at your local store. I mail order what I use in a repro open top Colt RICHARDS MASON conversion from Cabela's.

If you're shooting a .357 Magnum use .38 Special as it'll save wear & tear and be easier in the recoil department ... but don't try to stuff a round in a gun that won't fit.
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Old 03-17-2008, 05:02 AM   #6
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Re: 357 or 45?

This doesn't have to be an either/or proposition. Buy both.

It should be easy to predict that .22, 9mm, .38, .357, .40 S&W, .44 mag, and .45 ACP will be fairly common handgun calibers after SHTF. As much as I like it, the .45 Colt won't.
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Old 03-17-2008, 06:02 AM   #7
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Re: 357 or 45?

While .45 ACP Ball will be plentiful, .357 Mag Ball isn't. Most American companies load .357, even in bulk, with a soft-point bullet, or a JHP. S&B, and Fiocchi load ball, but they aren't as likely to be found in local stores, at least not in Maryland or Georgia.

Moon Clips are hard to bend, but it can be done. Then again, they can also be straightened out well enough to remain in service.

Are we talking about human predators only? If we are, the ,45 ACP has a lot going for it. Less recoil, better availability, and the moon-clips act as their own speed-loader.

If we get into actual scenarios where defense against large predators may be necessary, the .357 Magnum is more powerful, and is available in hunting loads.

In Katrina situations, a long-gun is going to be a better choice. It offers more power, more capacity, and more range and penetration than a pistol. If you're trying to stay alive, concealability becomes secondary. The sight of a rifle, in the hands of a determined person, can also result in bad guys withdrawing.
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Old 03-17-2008, 07:44 AM   #8
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Re: 357 or 45?

you're missing something- ruger makes it's blackhawk in 45acp/45 colt with 2 cylinders so there's no need to argue about moon clips- you just replace the cylinder as needed- however, finding 45 colt brass is another expensive matter- but there's other factors that play into it- first, the length of barrel- in 3 inches or less the 357 full power loads are absolute murder on the hands, even with good grips , and the 45 has a bigger frontal area, also more weight in the bullet,even at lower velocity,and big and slow beats small and fast every time- i've been at this for 30+ years, and there isn't a 38/357 anywhere in my collection- i've got a couple of 9mm ( 1 issued, i private) but the rest are 44/45/45acp- the only drawback to the blackhawk is that's slow to reload cause it's single action- shtf- easy; 45acp but in the 1911- you want the fast reload and the gun is simpler- then a 9mm or a 40 depending on what the local police have- last the 357/ 38 special- again the ruger blackhawk comes in a 357/38 special, but with a twist- there's also a 9mm cylinder - trouble is at 355 bullet diameter vs 357 bore, she's two thou under the bore and doesn't get spun properly,so it's not as accurate as something bore size, but it does give you THREE caliber options instead of 2- but if you're talking about ammo availibilty, again, look to what the local pd is carrying- in my case it's the 40 short and wide in a glock- and that's the brass that shows up in the range buckets , then the 9mm, and then the 45- very few revolver rounds
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Old 03-17-2008, 04:49 PM   #9
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Re: 357 or 45?

Many thanks for the detailed replies, guys.

I think from the info garnered I want to get a 1911. I was hoping for a revolver bec it's easier to maintain, less prone to break, but the moon clips are the deal breaker. Something extra to get lost, bend, etc.

A revolver would be fun, but I have to pay off my debts and contribute to Nader's campaign this year.

Plus, the 1911s sound pretty sturdy, assuming you get a well-built one. Speaking of which, another Ayoob article recommended Springfield, Kimber, Paraordnance, if I remember correctly. Maybe Colt also?

I read on the Kel-tec list that Kimber had QC and customer service problems. So, that would appear to be out.

I would lean toward Para for the superior firepower. Are there issues with double stack 1911s vs single? ie, does single have more reliable feeding? I like being prepared but reliability is important.

Also, I'm not sure how impt concealibility/portability is in a SHTF situation, but if I went for the 3" commander or officers models, I believe I've read that the shorter models have cycling and feeding issues. Should I get the full size and sacrifice portability for reliability? Also, can I/should I buy a used model and save some money? Will the (I'm assuming) lifetime warranty still apply?

I have a nice norinco sks that will also serve me nicely, should I need it. Also, a moss 500a.

Thanks,

NJR
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Old 03-17-2008, 05:56 PM   #10
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Re: 357 or 45?

well, with the double stack you MAY have problems getting mags, all parts have to fit, - the single, you can get a 10 shot or larger mag, everybody makes parts, and everyone's parts fit everyone else's pistol- since i can count up to 8,that's what i go with- the 10's stick out too far for some of the diciplines i shoot- on the 1911, the only thing i've ever had break is a slide stop and if you know the pistol, takes about 5 seconds to change- the spring if she starts to misfeed- and that's on a colt mk4, series 70- my ISSUE remington rand( vintage 43) has never had ANY breakage whatsoever- i've tried the other sizes and went back to the full size gov't- the other frames don't have enough metal for my meaty hands- i still think you should be able to wrap ALL your fingera aroundthe grip, and have it stick out the bottom of the hand ever so slightly
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Old 03-26-2008, 03:58 PM   #11
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Re: 357 or 45?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMike
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nice_Jewish_Rifle
. . . What would the availability of .357 ball be like compared to .45 acp in a shtf sitn? Would .45 long colt be readily available? . . .
357 mag with 125 grain JHPs has a wonderful record as a manstopper. A 357 gun can also shoot 38 Special, and even 38 S&W I think. Better check that last one. This doubles or triples the rounds available in stores. Don't know why you would want ball, other than practice, or to reduce cost.
A 357 will shoot 38 Special, however will not chamber 38 S&W, because the 38 S&W case is slightly larger in diameter.

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Old 04-02-2008, 06:57 PM   #12
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Re: 357 or 45?

[quote="Nice_Jewish_Rifle"]Many thanks for the detailed replies, guys.

1911s sound pretty sturdy, assuming you get a well-built one. Speaking of which, another Ayoob article recommended Springfield, Kimber, Paraordnance, if I remember correctly. Maybe Colt also?


1911 is the way to go ,I speak from experience here...Get a colt, you"ll pay more ,but its worth it! I havent owned anything but colt so I cant say that the others mentioned,arent just as good...

What I can say is, "the colt 1911 will shoot like a house on fire!!!" The full sized or the officers models dont have any reliability issues, unless the gun is brand new and not broken in yet...
Also, I use the hard ball ammo, even though, the newer colts have throated barrells ,and big fat mirror polished feed ramps, for the hollow points or jhps...
However the officers model tends to have more felt recoil and being smaller in size, takes some getting used too... Some shooters with larger hands may perfer the larger gripping surface of the full sized frame...
As far as being sturdy ,you wont find a sturdier hand gun on the planet...And if you run out of ammo, you can haft it to the end of a hickory stick!!!And go running around,cracking peoples skulls with it!!! Untill you find some ammo, then go back to shooting !!!
COLT 1911= Quality, hammer forged, time tested design , battle proven,
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Old 01-12-2009, 07:03 PM   #13
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Re: 357 or 45?

It kind of depends on what you want and how well you can shoot. I own both, shot tens of thousands of rounds and evaluated weapons systems for the "guvmint". Therefore I would like to add some other considerations.

First off to be considered with 45 is that the accuracy requirements of 45 Ball ammo at 50 yards shot from a universal receiver set in tons of concrete is 7.5" and that is terrible! ! ! ! I know guys that shoot much better with a bow and arrow rig ! ! !! Considering the acceptance accuracy for M1911A1 was 3" at 15 yards, the introduction of sight alignment errors, wear of slide,barrel bushing etc a Gov't model not modified is lucky to hit a E silhouette at 50 yards on a good day. It was my personal carry gun and I had many a sore side/rib cage from flying a 707/727 etc. with one in a Hume Agent 9 holster on one side and a double mag carrier on other side. It has been semi accurized but not to the extent that it compromises reliability. Would I carry it today? Depends on the situation but most likely it would stay home and the Glock 21 or 30 would get to ride. Why? The Glock is inherently more accurate than any OUT OF THE BOX Gov't Model. Now Gold Cups are better but then again 45 Ball is not shot in Matches. 45 MATCH BALL is and it has to shoot 3.5" at 50 yards. This is not the white box stuff you see at Wally World either. The Gold Cup are built tight, any amount of foreign material introduced into it (like dropping it in dirt, exposing it to a sand storm etc) is likely to be BRAKE CITY. The Gov't Model M1911A1 has it hands down insofar as the mud, blood and beer testing goes which is my background. It is strictly a close in social gun. If you can read his name tag he is within range. Regardless of the model when the 230 grain gets to 51 yards and you start to see the drop, you will swear there is a drag chute on the round and it drops very quickly.

While demonstrating a weapons system at Ft. Knox years ago they had a very interesting test they wanted to do. They mounted test weapons on a M1 Tank or secured it to the outside front of the turret and placed that tank in the rear of a column of tanks and they drove like 20 miles on dry dirt roads. I would leave a M1911A1 out and expect it to perform but at this point in the game that is the only one I am aware of. I suspect the Glock would be OK on that as well but I have no actual experience to say so.

Col Fackler of the Army Wound Ballistics Lab liked a 45 as well and is responsible for lots of good testing and ground breaking test methodology in wound ballistics. He also did some testing with handloads and he really liked the 185 grain bullets at 1100 fps.

The rule of thumb is big bullets make big holes. Big fast bullets are likely to make two holes, incoming and outgoing causing the person of interest to leak faster which generally leads to a out of service condition.

On the other hand the 357 revolver with six inch barrel is a weapon to be feared at 200 yards. Even a 3" barrel is to be feared in the hands of a good shot. For instance we shot up about 90,000 rounds of 357 Mag in testing and I got to where I could keep them in a car door standing at 200 meters with the 3" barrel. There is no way that will happen with a a 45 cause you are going to have to elevate the weapon so high your hands will obscure the target.

Revolvers as a rule don't like the mud, blood and beer scenario either. The Air Force used to issue Mod 15 Smiths to ground controllers hitting the beach and those personnel were issued with special gun shaped plastic bags to carry them in. Only problem is when it came out of the bag it had better be a real SHTF scenario because once the sand got in, it was down. The Engineer in Charge of handguns at Army Small Cal Weapons Lab ( Roscoe Picard ) used to say the expected life of such a weapon in blowing sand was 30 seconds. Ever wondered why the old Cavalry Holsters, German Army Holsters were designed to totally protect the weapon from the elements? Thats why, the military found out quickly that handguns are like women, they don't like to be dirty.

I have my own range now that I am retired and I have a little demonstration when friends ask what they should get etc. After the usual questions I can kind of direct them better but then again there are those that won't listen to logic and must be shown. Had a friend who worked in a machineshop and he got me a 12" steel disc 2" thick and heat treated it to like c60. I love it. I stand it on edge on a flat surface and have the would be gunslinger open fire on it (wearing safety glasses) at 25 yards. A 45 will knock it over as well as a 357 Mag. If a hot (NATO SPEC) 9MM hits it right at the top it will go down but reluctantly.

I have a Ruger GP100 6 inch and a 222 grain bullet mold for the 357 Maximum. I have loaded it with 2400 and chronographed it at 1200 fps at 10 feet but it shoots better at 1100. Had a friend down and he asked how far it was good for and we walked back to 100 and he was hitting silhouette target five out of six. I moved him back to 200 yards and had set the plate up and told him to try and hit the plate. As luck would have it, he tagged it first shot at 200 and it went down quick. I knew then I had a winner. I looked at the plate thinking it might have been a high edge shot and the plate showed the shot be below the center line.

Called Col Fackler and told him what I had and he was enthusiastic and ran some calculations and he figured based on his testing that bullet at 800 fps would go completely through the biggest guy I could find and I was starting it at 1100! ! Result is I have a GP100 3" with them as my car gun. Surprisingly recoil is easily controlled much easier than the 125 to 158 grain factory rounds.

I had a 1500 page catalog that I mounted on a fixture at 10 feet and shot it high center with a Winchester 158 Gr. JHP. It went in 1100 pages and stopped.
I shot it low center with my 1100 fps/222 grain and bullet went slam though, out the back and buried itself in the dirt! ! !

So what do you do, on one hand you have a big slow moving proven thumper automatic with a arc a mortarman would be proud of that is barely capable of hitting a man sized target at 50 yards or a fast moving heavy bullet that will take down anyone at 200 yards that if dropped in the dirt is most likely going to protest by shutting down.

One has to make the decision of whether he wants to have reliability, so so accuracy and delivery when they are close in or heavy delivery, 500% better accuracy when they are distant and penetration when they are behind moderate cover.

I have also conducted testing on car doors, dry wall framed wall simulation etc and I can tell you a 9MM, 45, 357 (125/150gr) is not real effective through a car door at 50 yards. You can thank Ralph Nader for that as the Nader Door plate (crash protection plate stamped from decent steel and ribbed for strength in car impacts) defeats every handgun round I hit it with at 50 yards. I haven't tried the 222 on one so can't tell you what it might do.

In a SHTF scenario the ability to have your fired cases with you to load and shoot again another day has some merit in my book.

Also do you live in rural area or urban? Urban is generally a more conducive environment due to little dust, mud etc to contend with.

One of the most important considerations is do you have the ability/knowledge and a weapon designed to be taken down in the field and cleaned to get it going.

I never will forget going to Perry after a four year lay off and the whole world had gone black gun. Me? I was shooting a Mod 70 30.06 and have a High Master Rating and several national trophies resulting from it's use. At any rate there were a couple of armorer's vans behind the assembly line and it looked like morning of LEG DAY with everyone getting their triggers weighed. There were like 50 shooters lined up behind each van after 200 rapid ! ! !

Later on I noted there were no shooters in line and I strolled over and asked the armorers what the failures were that required their attention and they told me flat out their weapons were dirty (carbon build up). I have never seen such a line with M14s, M1s or bolt guns ! ! ! ! Only time I ever had to get a armorer to work on anything was I had a double with my M1 and they changed out the trigger spring and I never had it happen again. Thusly if you are going to augment with a AR, you better have plenty of experience in cleaning them.

In considering a weapon you need to consider location it will most likely be used. The amount of ammo that will be available in bad times and have the ability to make do with other ammo calibers in your weapon. That sounds weird but read on.


Consider this, if you have a 30.06 there is more 06 ammo loaded (per my contacts in civilian ammo industry) than all other calibers put together. If I have to and come upon 308 ammo, I can use it as well. Pull the bullet, ease out the primer, re-seat the primer in 30.06, dump in the 308 propellant, seat the bullet and you can keep the 06 going. Same thing with 30-30 ammo, 300 Mag ammo (all cals)(reduce any factory 300 mag load 20 grains and you should be well within the load range for a 30.06), 300 Savage, 303 Brit, 7.62X54 and a number of others. That is why the 30.06 is the universal cartridge. I assure all I don't recommend this but I have seen guys chamber 308 cases in 30.06, pull the trigger and never realize what they did till they see the shell casings that look like 444 Marlin cases laying on the ground. They were snug going in (308 has bigger shoulder) but easy coming out.

Once let a shooter on Marine Rifle Team shoot my 30.06 course gun off the bench on a hundred yard indoor range at Aberdeen PG. He fired like ten rounds bench rest and said "this thing doesn't shoot worth a crap." I turned around and he had a box of 308 sitting next to my 30.06 and was blasting away and never realized the error till I stopped him. Instead of shooting sub MOA at 100, he was getting like 5" group. In an emergency you gotta do what you gotta do and if I was in a bad situation and 308 is all it had, in it would go.

Reliability, durability, accuracy, maintainability, repairability, and utility has to be considered in all scenarios. If you don't have every last one of the attributes you may be lacking.

In a SHTF scenario there will be lots of deadlined vehicles and right there you have the makings of some excellent things to keep your weapons going. There has been several times at the range or a match a guy has had a weapon go down. During the ceasefire I got it going. Just opened car/truck hood, pulled the dip stick and lubed the weapon and SHAZAAM, it was shooting rest of the day. Give me automatic tranny fluid, diesel fuel or kerosene and paint thinner and I can keep a weapon going for years. Even a bottle of Mobil 1 will work wonders.



Should things get bad I will probably augment my 357 3" with 222s with a 308 or 30.06 bolt gun for a car gun. Haven't seen a car/pickup in a showroom yet that will take a pounding from a 30.06 and keep on ticking. Will also have a Nylon 66 for small game.

Just thought I would add a few considerations I have never seem discussed in any forum.
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Old 01-12-2009, 07:40 PM   #14
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Re: 357 or 45?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hummer
First off to be considered with 45 is that the accuracy requirements of 45 Ball ammo at 50 yards shot from a universal receiver set in tons of concrete is 7.5" and that is terrible!....The Glock is inherently more accurate than any OUT OF THE BOX Gov't Model. Now Gold Cups are better but then again 45 Ball is not shot in Matches. 45 MATCH BALL is and it has to shoot 3.5" at 50 yards. This is not the white box stuff you see at Wally World either. The Gold Cup are built tight, any amount of foreign material introduced into it (like dropping it in dirt, exposing it to a sand storm etc) is likely to be BRAKE CITY. The Gov't Model M1911A1 has it hands down insofar as the mud, blood and beer testing goes which is my background. It is strictly a close in social gun. If you can read his name tag he is within range. Regardless of the model when the 230 grain gets to 51 yards and you start to see the drop, you will swear there is a drag chute on the round and it drops very quickly.
If by "OOB GM" you mean some clanky relic of WWII, you might be right. Nearly all modern 1911 clones will shoot better than you seem to think. I own more than a half dozen 1911 clones I've put together out of lowest-bidder parts, leftovers and junk and the worst of them will stay inside 6" at 50 yards--which is quite a LONG shot for any defensive handgun, and nearly unheard of--with that Wally World white box ammo. The best of them will do better than that.

Quote:
On the other hand the 357 revolver with six inch barrel is a weapon to be feared at 200 yards. Even a 3" barrel is to be feared in the hands of a good shot. For instance we shot up about 90,000 rounds of 357 Mag in testing and I got to where I could keep them in a car door standing at 200 meters with the 3" barrel. There is no way that will happen with a a 45 cause you are going to have to elevate the weapon so high your hands will obscure the target.
What an odd shooting technique. Apparently you've never read any Elmer Keith to learn the proper sighting technique for long-range targets.

Quote:
I have a Ruger GP100 6 inch and a 222 grain bullet mold for the 357 Maximum. I have loaded it with 2400 and chronographed it at 1200 fps at 10 feet but it shoots better at 1100...Called Col Fackler and told him what I had and he was enthusiastic and ran some calculations and he figured based on his testing that bullet at 800 fps would go completely through the biggest guy I could find and I was starting it at 1100! ! Result is I have a GP100 3" with them as my car gun.

Apparently you've never read any Massad Ayoob, either.
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Old 01-12-2009, 08:40 PM   #15
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Re: 357 or 45?

I once met a guy at Camp Perry who lived in same town as Elmer who saw him in town every week and he said he averaged blowing up a handgun a week or two he figured. I have his book Hell I Was There and seems there may be another but don't remember anything about long range sighting.

As I remember it, he worked a machinegun rebuild line at a military depot out west, Ogden????

I must have got those fine 45 frames you left behind as I got a new one, can't remember the name and the sear hole was/is mislocated. Guy that made it told my dealer friend he was out of business and to send it to him and he would see what he could do. I had slam forgot about that, it was over a year ago and I don't have it back yet. I gotta email him and ask him what ever happened to it. Guess I gotta take a chance and get another fine after market frame.

Can you recommend one that will take GI parts and work without having to be tuned?

I got a Essex stainless frame once. It wouldn't work till a mechanic from the Marine Corps pistol team reworked it. I dumped it. Woops make that two Essex, second one is blued. Took a mechanic from Army MTU to get it going. Least ways I think it is going. Haven't shot it 50 rounds I guess.

Obviously I need you to pick the numbers for my lottery ticket as I have not owned a after market frame yet that was worth a crap. 3 out of 3 or first time shame on you, second time shame on me and third time shame, shame shame on me ! ! ! !

Never met Massad. Worked with Jimmy Cirillo (who worked with him) and we went to IPSC rifle and pistol matches together but he bought the farm about a year ago on the Balt-Wash expressway I think it was. He wanted to do a story on me but we never got around to it and I got transferred and he went out on disability when he was walking backwards during a lecture and stepped in a depression in the ground that screwed his back up. He went back to New York and told me he was doing the lecture thing with Massad. His favorite saying to students was, "I am an Italian Greek married to a Puerto-Rican and you think you got troubles." His other favorite saying was when I answered phone in morning at his office when I was looking for him he said he was going to be out sick and to tell management he had eye trouble. I asked "eye trouble" thinking something must have happened and he said, " Yeah, I can't see coming to work today." That was one of the best one liners I ever heard him say and he had a bunch and a sense of humor that couldn't be beat.

What kind of ammo are you getting that as assembled piece will shoot that well?
I have a case of Winchester Match Ball that should and wadcutter that will but neither of which is available at Wally World. I have two hard ball guns built. One has a Barstow barrel and I think I shot it only once in leg match at Perry.
Never got into three gun.

I have a 45 that I have shot three inches with at 100 yards (Federal 185 Match) but it has a 26" Douglas No 5 barrel on a 03A3 action and Lyman Target scope was on it when it happened. You interested in a 45 sniper rifle???? Would love to give it a home. I upgraded to a 45 Long Colt bolt gun.

Tell me about this technique for aiming at long range. It will have to be with at least a six inch barrel as my arms are getting shorter the older I get.
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Old 01-13-2009, 06:14 AM   #16
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Posts: 63
Re: 357 or 45?

I say go with the 1911... The gold cup is more accurate because of better sights and trigger. I dont even shoot my gold cup past about 15 to 20' feet
maybe a little less with the officers 1911, but it holds it's own with a full size ...

And from a tactical veiw the 1911 isnt intended for long range work, its more for up close work, when you've run out of rifle ammo and just before the hand to hand fighting," Rifle, pistol, knife,shovel,stick,rock" in that order...

Glock, they might be great... I duno, never owned one...Im just not into the whole double action and decockers and all that ...

But what I can say is "Ole Slab Sides" Has been there and done that already...
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Old 01-13-2009, 08:04 AM   #17
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Re: 357 or 45?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hummer
Tell me about this technique for aiming at long range. It will have to be with at least a six inch barrel as my arms are getting shorter the older I get.
You already know how to do it.

When you move from the 200 yard line to the 600 yard line with your Garand, do you jack up the front sight so high that it covers up your target? Of course not. You do just the opposite: You keep the bull perched on top of the front sight, and you lower the rear of the gun. Except you probably call it "Dialing on some up-clicks" or something of the kind. Same thing--your eye and the front sight and the target keep their same relative positions, and the back end of the gun goes down.

It works the same way with a handgun. You just drop the rear sight blade (and with it, of course, the whole rear end of the gun) until the bullets start landing where you want. In extreme cases this means you'll have the entire rear blade dropped below the base of the front sight. That's okay. Just eyeball up everything as best you can and let fly.

It worked for Elmer, it works for me, and it'll work for you, too.
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Old 01-13-2009, 01:26 PM   #18
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Re: 357 or 45?

Well that was very interesting concept and you were right, never read,saw or heard of it but I just went and pulled the GP out. Outside of Metallic Handgun Silhouette shooting at 200 meters, that is as far as I ever tried a pistol for serious targeting. I have learned two gun facts today. The other is that the striker spring for a Pattern 14 will work in 6.5 Daudeteau rifle so all we gotta do now is see if it has more energy than the original spring. It has about 8 more turns but dimensionally it is a match at full compression. Now I just gotta see if it has more energy and won't take a set.
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Old 01-13-2009, 08:35 PM   #19
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Re: 357 or 45?

I couldn't decide between the .45acp or the .357mag; so I got both
I would love for someone to build a carbine (semi-auto) that uses .357mag. I got an 1894 in .357 to accompany the revolver and a M1 Carbine to accompany the gov't model. In a SHTF scenario, daughter would have a Sig226 (she didn't really like the gov't model or the revolver) and the M1 Carbine, I would have the .357's. There is a Glock 21 and 12 gauge in the evacuation kit. I'm building an evacuation kit for my ex-wife. It will have a 20 gauge and probably a 9mm (she also doesn't like the .45 or .357). In a truly world ending scenario, I would try to get some of the rifles from the PD. My boss said to make sure I leave him at least one though
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Old 01-13-2009, 08:46 PM   #20
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Re: 357 or 45?

V Man, all you need now is a 30.06 or 308 heavy barrel and a 300 yard zero and you will be dangerous to 400+ yards ! ! ! Plan for plenty of ammo.
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