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Old 06-24-2008, 08:16 PM   #1
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12GA FH--Hairy Shotgun/Rifle--

Some info you all may find interesting
in our 12GA FH testing and experimenting.
Back visiting here, hope you like info.
There are two videos of 12GA FH on YouTube,
exploding big heavy walled pails of water.
Not milk jugs , but 6 gal water in thick
plastic. with thick locked on lids........
The "Grampa's Cannon" one with a long view,
and "Grandpa's First Shot" a closeup video,
the first one, that shows how the top of heavy
shelf got bent. Later kids will do videos showing
muzzle blast and recoil. We also have tested an
8GA FH, we made on an Enfield bolt action.
Also 3 ought buckshot from the 8ga load
goes through 2" hardwood ok. I will test
8ga on waterpail also, to see what happens. Ed
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Old 06-11-2009, 10:37 PM   #2
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Re: 12GA FH--Hairy Shotgun/Rifle--

We have been working on a lot of things in our
12GA From Hell and related projects.We made an
8ga on a NEF 10ga heavy barrel platform.
Third picture shows one of these.We've been working on
other wildcats like my 585HE and 700HE.
Fourth picture is of my 700HE big bolt action.
First is picture of 4bore/ga action with lever open and
breach down.You see bottom of breach block.The action
and barrel will be held in stock with 2 bolts into bottom
of action one bolt in barrel ahead of action and a recoil
barrel ring in front end of stock. Didn't have to add
any recoil lugs, as the wide back of the action is
the recoil lug. Second picture is of the 4bore cases
and 2000gr slugs, with 20mm case I make 4bore/ga cases
from and the 30-06 for comparison.Ed







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Old 11-30-2011, 06:03 PM   #3
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over the years I and others have worked to continue
development of the 12ga From Hell and other big bores, and have posted info
all around the net about our research and many ideas we have implemented for
12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga,28ga,20ga,16ga, and my 585HE and 700HE wildcat cases.....

The idea for the 12ga FH, and the first gun built for it,
was Rob Garnicks on the AR Forums. Then I and others joined in and set up a big variety
of guns for the case. First case a brass case 3.85" long, made from BMG brass expanded
out to take 12ga .729" dia slugs and a 12ga size rim added on. Also we get turned cases
from Rocky Mtn Cart of that length and shorter. Many guys used 3.5" cases
so that they could shoot 3.5" plastic also. Although our long chamber
will shoot any of the shorter cases.

Here are pictures, the first showing long brass 12ga FH case with
regular 12ga case. Other various 12ga FH guns are next,1887 with heavy barrel,
Nef Ultra heavy barrel with length added, Sav 210 bolt gun with heavy barrel,
,A FBW falling block in my 585HE belted case.
.And we also worked with 8ga,4ga, in falling blocks, 20ga,16ga in break actions, and
my wildcat 585HE,700HE in bolt actions, and more..Next picture is our big cartridges
from 2 bore on down, in order-2bore- 4ga- 8ga- 10ga- 12ga FH- 700HE--700H 3.25- 30-06..
The next picture is the 4bore falling block we built Our design. Our 4bore is 1 inch bore.
We also helped in getting the size built into the MRC PH action to fit our
cases like the 700H 3.25" shown in next picture.Next picture is an 8bore
bolt gun a guy on another forum built from scratch..Last is a 8ga
we built on same design as our 4bore falling block..
I'll be posting a bunch more of our work and any
ideas and help is welcome.Many guys have helped
out over the years, half the work others have done.Ed










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Old 11-30-2011, 06:56 PM   #4
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Well, there's something you don't see every day.
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Old 12-01-2011, 12:11 AM   #5
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More history of firsts, in our 12ga FH and big bore work.

First picture is Rob's 50BMG size falling block, that was the
first gun that the 12ga FH case was chambered in.
It is a modern Borchardt and can take full rifle pressures.
With this gun Rob was able to get 1000gr 12ga solid
slug to 3000 fps. The 2nd gun to have this case was
my Savage 210 pictured earlier.

Second picture is the first NEF 12ga Ultra that we put
the first 12ga fH case in. I only had to lengthen chamber.
The same gun now has long barrel and thumbhole stock.

Third picture is first NEF 10ga heavy barrel that we put
the 10ga FH in. Gun came with long 30" heavy barrel.

Fourth picture is the first 8ga test gun we built using the
super strong 8ga kiln cases with the belt step swaged
down. It is an Enfield that we reamed out to take the
case, like the 12ga Mauser 12ga conversions were done.
And we added extra rear bolt lugs for strength.

Fifth picture is the 1st gun my 700H 3.25 was put in.
It is and Enfield and gets 1000gr bullet 2100 fps.
Sixth picture is the first my 585HE was put into.














And in the vein of old time gun actions, of which are various falling
blocks, we like them also for the hairy big bores, like the 8bore and
4bore ones we made over the years, that are pictured above.
Following are 3 pictures of various parts and processes of making the
action, using easy to get small parts, lever, trigger, hammer, etc,
and the action block, breach block from steel blocks in 1st pic.

Last 2 pictures are the FBW brand falling blocks, one which is the
Model L that we adapted to the one piece stock and the other is the
smaller Model S with regular two piece stock. Both are set up with
my 585HE. I can run full pressure in the 585.

The Model L, I can switch to a 20ga barrel, 600NE barrel,
and my 700HE using moderate loads. Last pic is Model L with
thumb hole stock, and my 585HE case in the action..Ed











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Old 12-02-2011, 04:52 AM   #6
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Now the 50 BMG brass can be made into some real
great cartridges like the making of 12ga FH first, showing
cases with rim old off and threaded and the 12ga rims
to be screwed on; and 2nd making my 700HE showing old case,
old case with belt, and then expanded out to 700cal..Ed





Here are pictures, huge variety of 12ga slugs and saboted slugs.
First a 600 NE slug in in 12ga wadcup... 2nd The US-S slug
along with others.3rd a Jacketed 730gr and a hard cast, heat treated
600gr, full bore slugs, 4th a sabot with hardcast .504"
diameter slug, 5th other sabots, 6th brass turned slugs
and there are many others.Ed












Last edited by hubel458; 12-02-2011 at 04:55 AM.
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Old 12-02-2011, 05:02 AM   #7
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In the early days; in my Greener's book he states that
guns with a rifled choke section of the barrel, called
12ga paradox shotgun/rifles, with slugs, heavier powder
charges than shot loads, could hold what amounted to
about 5 inch pattern at 100 yds.

And still had 1800 ft lbs energy at 100yds.
And that is with guns with lighter, weaker barrels
than we have today, so our work is a good extension
of what the early big bore guys did.

And then the 4bore for guys liking a big challenge, 3rd picture...Ed







Thanks to rattler on 24hr forum for the above old time pictures,
and guys really like them. Quite interesting.

Many have success with all kinds of high-power slug designs and
with extra power, have pushed the reliable range of 12ga slugs/bullets
from 75 yds to over a 150 yds. ...Here is picture from a 1926
Manton catalog showing, 1st picture, many brass case old time slug loads.
Notice the 20bore and 12 bore ones with pointed slugs, seems
as ideas to hotrod 20s and 12s are old hat, not as strong as 12ga FH ....
Both Pictures below from lancaster and CptCurl on Nitroexpress.

2nd picture is from my Greener book, of double 8ga elephant guns.Ed





Last edited by hubel458; 12-02-2011 at 05:11 AM.
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Old 12-02-2011, 05:21 AM   #8
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This looks pretty hairy too.

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Old 12-02-2011, 03:54 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WaltGraham View Post
Whaddaya think, Walt? Maybe the first man-portable crew served weapon?
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Old 12-02-2011, 05:57 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishCop View Post
Whaddaya think, Walt? Maybe the first man-portable crew served weapon?
Probably something similar, an old blunderbuss maybe.

I shot something Tom handed me at GS that I wish had been mounted to the bench...
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Old 12-02-2011, 11:03 PM   #11
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There are a lot of big bore videos on Youtube.
That punt gun is neat deal. Our videos on Youtube--
blowing up 6gal pail of water -"Grandpa's Cannon"
"Grandpa's First Shot" 12ga FH -- 610gr HP at 2800-3000.

We get asked about legality and whether these big cartridges
are DDs. First of all; all shotgun calibers over 50cal are exempt from
being classified as DDs under Title 18 GCA Section 921....
And it doesn't matter what exciting or promo name we call them,
the barrels are still marked for gauge. They can be called 12ga 3 Inch
Super Magnum, 12ga Goose Magnum, 12ga From hell, 12ga 3.5 Express,
12ga Hammerhead, etc, they still are a 12ga case of some length.
And length doesn't matter as long as shorter cases, with straight
sides, and same 12ga(or whatever gauge)base size fit and fire in
longer chambers. IE; 2.5, 2.75, and 3" firing in 3.5", and all of these
firing in our 3.85" longer chamber. IE; you can't take 37mm cannon
shell and neck it to 12ga and have an automatically exempt 12ga
cartridge, as other shorter 12 gauges would not fit/fire in chamber,
and you'd have to get it exempt as sporting. How-
Under the same Section any other over 50cal non-shotgun
cartridge can be classified as Exempt For Sporting Use by
applying for the exemption, like I have done for my cases,and many
others(JDJ-AHR-Etc) have done, as well as cases already sporting
from the old days. Now as for hunting rules in shotgun areas,
game depts may say that you can't use long range spitzer bullets
but must use traditional blunt slugs, for safety. Hunting rules are
varied all over the place.Ed
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Old 12-05-2011, 04:58 PM   #12
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Some more onfo about our projects and research.
Quite a few have wanted doubles in our 12GA long case.
Rob is doing one on a big 10ga Zabala double,with Greener
crossbolt lock. He is replacing 10ga barrels with heavy
12ga rifled barrels, mono-blocked into the 10ga breaches
by threading them into the breach sections.
First,2nd,3rd pictures. He is now building and getting
barrel ribs done and the gun regulated.

4th picture is my 700HE in a Vulcan bolt action.
5th is the 6gal water pail from the Youtube video, atomizing.
The pail was heavy plastic, full and sealed tight.
That was 12ga 600gr hollow point slug about 3000 fps.












CASES-1st is comparison of 12ga FH brasscases, with ours on the
left we made using BMG brass, and one on the right that
is one of a few we found already done in 12ga size, that is
as long as ours.RMC makes them as long as ours also.
2nd is our long case next to short one. You can see how much
thicker and stronger our 12ga FH is.

3rd is a slug made for rifled, for use in 12ga wadcup and it
being 16ga size works in our 16ga FH case as shown.
4th shows 20ga RMC cases and dies we have found for them.
Cases are 3.5" and in middle are the 3.5" Hastings plastic
hotrod sabot, factory loads. Our 3.5' chambers do both.
5th shows 1500gr 4bore slugs a guy cast for me and cases.Ed











Last edited by hubel458; 12-05-2011 at 05:59 PM.
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Old 12-05-2011, 09:11 PM   #13
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My congratulations to the craftsman who builds these. They are rooted in the Punt gun and even more so the late-19th. Century African traditions. Not only is the machining excellent but it is truly envelope pushing stuff.

These are what they need on that "Terra Nova" show!
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Old 12-06-2011, 06:15 PM   #14
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Some more gun info about what others around the world
are doing with big bores. First is a 4bore Tula pump
gun, made in Russia. A few guys in the US have them.
They are smoothbore and .938" bore. They used a short
3" long plastic case, and we helped some of the
owners get a brass cases made by Rocky Mtn Cartridge.
Big Al, a poster on the AR Forums owns one.
Our 4bore case is 1" bore and case is 4.05" long.

Second is a bolt gun a guy in Europe did in 1" bore
using 20mm brass expanded, ending up for
headspacing, a small shoulder.
3rd is a big and small falling blocks, big one
the 4bore we made and other a FBW Model L in 585HE.
Both stocks need finishing in these pictures
and metal blued or anodized...

4th is a 20ga FH 3.5" chamber break action. It is a
CBC and we monoblocked in a heavy long 20ga barrel.
5th is a Mauser 12ga GEHA conversion, that had real
light barrel and cracked stock. We put the extra
Savage 12ga 24", rifled slug barrel we had, in it, and
used the strong Savage plastic stock. Still has original
3" chamber and we test our slow powder 3" plastic loads.
Great load in full bore slug is 600gr Dixie using
90gr IMR4759, going 1800. This load lab tested
and verified for speed and only runs plastic case, magnum
shot gun pressures.














More info on cases, first is our cases where we put in a
bushinfg to use shotgun primers. Also some of the guys
shorten the cases for use in 3" and shorter chambers.
Magtech makes 2.5" 12ga drawn brass cases that guys
are reloading for use in short action like 1887 leverguns.
2nd is 8ga plastic cases we use, the left are
REM and clear is wIN.These can be gotten at BPI
and Precision Reloading. We use roll crimp on
these for slugs and sabots. 1100gr at 2000 is a good load.

3rd are 8 and 10 ga hard cast slugs with hollowbases we use.
4th is some of our rifle wildcat stuff, my 585HE cases,
die sets and reamers. Dies are by CH4D, reamers Dave Manson.
5th is our 585HE in two break actions, a CBC and NEF.
Both set up by mono-blocking in 585 heavy barrels...Ed











Last edited by hubel458; 12-06-2011 at 06:24 PM.
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Old 12-09-2011, 09:44 PM   #15
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Some more gun info. Here is picture of a nice, large diameter
action a fellow built, for big bore use.Nice beautiful machine
work, He put a 700 short case in it. He called it 700WTF.
It would do 12ga, 20 ga, etc.

Second is the 8 bore we just made on falling block. It is
chambered for now for the 8ga 3.3" heavy duty plastic
case that we use. That we get by swaging the belt down on
the new 8ga kiln cases that BPI and Precision Reloading sell.
The chamber fires old original 8ga cases also, but a regular
kiln load won't chamber, a safety factor for guns not
as strong as the fallong block.

Third is the Savage 210 we put a 700 cal barrel in and made it
a 700NE. The 700 NE has same rim diameter as 12ga, but a
smaller base, ,020" smaller, Handles the loads fine, as its
factory loads are the same as our top loads in the SAvage
with RMC 3.5 brass cases. Before that I had my 700H 3.25"
belted case in it. Worked great.

4th- we made a 28ga FH, a brass case 3.25" long that
RMC made for us. The chamber still fits and fires shorter
28ga plastic cases.Here is one in picture with a 505 Gibbs to show
the size and potential on the left. I put first one in a Mossy 695
with a heavy rifled barrel. The 28ga rifled is same groove
diameter as the 550 magnum, so same diameter slugs work.

5th are couple of our 12ga FH cases guys shortened for
short actions, less recoil. The left 2 are 2 inches, right 2.25",
and some have shortened them to 2.5" ,for use in
guns that will feed loaded 3" plastic. The 3" loaded plastic
and 2.5" brass with slug are about 2.7"..
If you folks have questions we'll help if we can.Ed















Last edited by hubel458; 12-10-2011 at 09:28 AM.
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Old 12-12-2011, 10:38 PM   #16
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What we are doing in getting more power from shotgun calibers
isn't super new or completely novel, most just
modernizing and improving older ideas..

In the early days; in my Greener's book he states that
gun with a rifled choke section of the barrel, called
12ga paradox shotgun/rifles, with slugs, heavier powder
charges than shot loads, could hold what amounted to
about 5 inch pattern at 100 yds.

And still had over 1800 ft lbs energy at 100yds.
And that is with guns with lighter, thinner barrels
than we have today, so our work is a good extension
of what the early big bore guys did.

And then 4bore for guys liking a big challenge, 4th picture.
Thanks to rattler on 24hr forum for the first 4 pics.











Continuing-Many have success with all kinds of high-power slug designs and
with extra power, have pushed the reliable range of 12ga slugs/bullets
from 75 yds to 150+ yds. Even in the old days. Here is picture from a 1926
Manton catalog showing, 1st picture, many brass case old time slug loads.
Notice the 20 bore and 12 bore ones with pointed slugs, seems
as ideas to hotrod 20s and 12s are old hat, not quite as strong as 12ga FH
but as strong as some factory hotrod loads now ....We can do more
now due to better guns, powder selection, and accumulated research.
Picture #1 from lancaster and CptCurl on Nitroexpress.

2nd picture is from the Greener book, of double 8ga elephant guns.

2rd is picture of an early falling block for big bores
called the Field I think. Looks like some other
side levers, looks like lever works forward.

And speaking of falling blocks 4th picture is the
start or 'fixins' so to speak for the next step
up, for our 2bore. Same design as the 4 and 8
bores only wider.

We are now getting 2.25" OD barrel reamed
out to the two bore size.
And a square hole for breach block done
in that hunk of 4130 steel.Ed








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Old 12-14-2011, 08:29 PM   #17
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Some more stuff from the old days---
First is picture sectioned Explora case and slug, showing how
they kept weight down so that it could be stepped up in
speed in older doubles, that didn't have real heavy barrels.
These guns had short section of rifling at the end
of the barrel or shallow rifling. THis allowed more speed
than old foster slugs which flattened the trajectory,
and along with rifling spin, allowed for longer range shooting.


Second picture from Greener book here, is of older 4 and
8 gauges.And you can see videos some of these great old
guns on Youtube.

Third picture shows steps of making 4bore case, one inch bore,
from 20mm. 2nd in picture is case with base turned and swaged
to size which leaves base smaller than rim, for rimmed case.
Then 3rd case has top expanded to take 1" diameter slug.
last shows the thickness and strength of finished case.
This case matches the turned 4bore case that Ken Owen had made
for the 4bore doubles he built.










And more from the old days, here is picture of
a variety of slugs being promoted and used a century ago.
And 2nd picture Paradox cases old and new.Bottom one is a
more modern version sold by H&H for slug hunters.

3rd is what a 4bore slug, if stop framed so to speak, would
look just leaving the muzzle of the 4bore falling block
we built. Some 4bores were used in the old days but they were
poorly stocked and balanced for taming recoil. Ours with thick
pads, thumbhole stock, proper balance with 1500gr
slug at 2000 all our guys here can handle just fine..Ed





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Old 12-17-2011, 03:26 AM   #18
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Some more slug experimenting and developement.
Here are pictures of the full bore Lee Key Slug
we had a guy cast. He took Lee Key mold and machined
it out to cast a .729" full bore slug.
The original Lee mold makes slugs smaller diameter,
so that they fit in a 12ga wadcup.
Slugs are hard cast alloy to take high speeds..
In picture is two MRC 2 5/8" brass 12ga cases with
slugs in them. These slugs with those brass cases are
being tested first in rifled barrels in a guys 1887 WIN,
where they needed short combination to feed from tube.
These slugs have real good shoulder step to
roll crimp against when used in plastic cases.

These first ones are 500 gr.The guys are reworking
another die to get the weight up to about 600gr,
that some of our the brass case guys want to use.
So many guys like the 600 gr size, but these with
the partly hollow base allows them to be longer,
for a little more stability,if used in smooth barrels.
Lee molds are not a real high price so it isn't
a bad deal to get them and change them.

Some newer slug ideas coming around. First is Brenneke,
a locked on base ounce slug, in sabot at factory speed of
16-1700 or so in 3" plastic.Really go in our 3.5" loads.
Brenekke has had full bore slugs with lock-on seal and
cushion, but this new appliction putting them in a sabot.
Picture #2


Third is Dupleks, steel slug riding on a plastic band,
penetrates very well. About 1 1/8 oz.And no steel touches
the bore only the plastic.Should have good penetration
witout breaking apart.These are front heavy will get
fair accuracy in smooth bores.











A new slug from the EU,a new 300gr US-S slug with locked
on base, discarding petals, by European Cartridge. Accurate
in smooth bores, Using the same idea as their all brass slugs
we showed above with locked on base, and discarding front petals.
Only these are mostly aluminum to get a lighter slug combo.In the
first picture.In 3" plastic they load to over 2100 with shotgun
powders. In a 3.5" plastic and our slower powders
we can get 2800. 2nd picture some results of penetration tests
in a sand bank they did. The brass centers penetrate like the
all brass ones they make.They are reporting 2" groups from regular
barreled smoothbore pumpguns at 50 yds with scope.Ed



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Old 12-22-2011, 01:35 AM   #19
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We are always looking for way to shoot 8 and 10s
using easy to get components,cheap, without buying
loaded rounds for big bucks, if available at all.

In 8ga falling block, plastic case got 930gr hollowbase
slug to 2300, It is a slug for 10 ga that we expanded
base a little to fit tight in 8ga wadcup. On the left in
picture. At 30 yds 3" group. Just with open sight,
About like the 10ga sight bead. There is enough hollow in
the base it flies pretty good from 8ga smooth barrel.

Along same line, in my 10ga 32" smooth bull barrel with a
750 gr .69cal hollowbase Dixie MZ slug in VP100
10ga wadcup about same speed and same accuracy.
Nice to just get a box of slugs that is in stock,
and a 2 cent cent wadcup and Fed 3.5" 10ga plastic cases
and be shooting cheap.And the cases roll crimp nice
down to these slugs...



A different, interesting style, of 12ga slug, from Russia.
First picture loaded round, in plastic, roll crimped.
Second, two types of slugs they have on the same base.
Base for rifled barrel, little smaller diameter than the
front. Looks like the roll crimp locks against
the edge of the base. Neat idea, and it could have a
flat meplat slug on the front of the base like
the US-S brass slugs from Greece are on the
plastic bases, that I have here. They must use a crimping
die with a deep hollow up in the middle. We have thought
of taking a roll crimper and putting a deeper recess
in middle to load longer nose slugs further out so as to
have more room for our slower powders...






Here is picture of a great sizer for expanded plastic
cases, a MEC Super Sizer. It operates with collets. Sizes
cases better than factory. Has the power to shrink
expanded basecups. 2nd picture is the roll crimper tool
in drill press, it does plastic cases as good a roll crimp
as the factory does...ED



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Old 12-27-2011, 07:31 PM   #20
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Here is picture of 4 long cases, top being a Rocky Mtn Cartridge
3.5" turned brass 20ga. Next a RMC 3.5" turned brass 12ga.
3rd down our 3.85" 12ga FH we made from BMG brass. Bottom
a RMC 3.85" turned brass 12ga FH case.




Next picture shows one of the old ways they locked slugs
into paper cases. Many old slugs had a wide deep groove
which made it possible to crimp that way.




Next pictures shows bullet jackets made from a copper tubing caps.
Caps are the ones they solder on to copper pipes, and they made
a die and punch to form them to a good nose shape and
size. Then they fill them from rear with lead.
Example; 1/2" cap does 700cal and 12ga with
right dies and punches.






Last the 2nd gun we put the 585HE long belted case in,
a Ruger 77 bolt action. it has a heavy 585 cal barrel,
and it is a real strong action....Ed

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