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Old 03-22-2006, 11:52 AM   #1
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Win 94 Shoots High

I inherited a Winchester Model 94 (approximately 1980 production) from my father when he died in 2003. It is nothing special -- .30-30 with standard furniture. I took it out to sight it in for me and discovered it shoots very high! At 25 meters, on the lowest rear sight setting (sight lowered to the barrel, I even removed the slider once!) it shoots six inches high! I shot at a rock about 200 meters away and the POI was about two feet high.

I don't think dad ever even shot the thing, he kept it in his truck and used his .30-06 every time he went hunting.

Question: If the rear sight is depressed as low as it will go, the only other thing to make it shoot high is having too short a front sight. There isn't much room under the front sight hood so I don't think a taller sight would fit -- maybe a very slightly taller one. Are the front sight beads removable on this firearm?

Any help out there?

Thanks
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Old 03-22-2006, 12:03 PM   #2
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What weight bullet you shooting?

You could put a taller post and not use the hood. I don't know if a tang sight would allow you to go lower in the rear or not.
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Old 03-22-2006, 03:20 PM   #3
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I used both 150's and 170's. There was very little difference between them.

The tang sight is attractive but I'm still baffled why the stock sights could be so far off. I checked for a bent barrel -- appears straight to me, lines up with the magazine tube like other 94's I've observed.

I guess I could call Winchester -- assuming they are still taking calls, even though it is not under warrantee.

If it were off a little bit, an inch or two, that's one thing, but six inches at 25 meters is a bunch!

I guess it wouldn't do to post if for sale below!!!!!
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Old 03-22-2006, 05:55 PM   #4
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first thing that comes to mind is what kind of ammo are you using?- right now i've got a 45 that shoots point of aim in the 1911 and 6 inches low at 25 yards through a ruger blackhawk- same ammo-
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Old 03-22-2006, 07:41 PM   #5
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Look down the barrel - after unloading!

Suggest unload it, check it unloaded, clean the barrel, then put a piece of paper in the open action, and look down the muzzle.

You may want to steady it in some sort of mount so you can study the appearance of the barrel without waving the gun all around.

A little bit of a bend in the barrel shows up quicker in the bore than in an external view, IMHO.


There are also mirror gadgets you can stick in the open action, and then look from the breech to the muzzle. That appeals to me as a safer method, but I don't have one, never tried it.
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Old 03-22-2006, 08:58 PM   #6
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t-star, if the same ammo shoots to different POI's then the sights on your guns (assuming fixed sights) are different from each other. You should find a difference between the two regardless of what ammo you shoot through both.

It was 150 gr. Remington and 170 gr. Federal. Point being that both of these shot about 6 inches high at 25 meters. ...and shooting at 200 meters showed the same tendancy.

Checked the bore. Everything seems concentric.

SN is 3,764,XXX I wonder exactly what year it was produced?
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Old 03-24-2006, 09:38 AM   #7
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I checked the old gun site, it was made in 1972.

I called customer service at Browning/Winchester. They got me to the repair guys. They wouldn't comment on why it's shooting high, and has never been altered. They did say they don't have repair parts for top-eject (taller front sight post). Pushed me off toward any gunsmith. Less than helpful.

I sure wish dad had checked the point of aim when he got it!
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Old 03-24-2006, 05:49 PM   #8
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Just get a front sight that is about .150 higher.

it is a five minute job to change.
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Old 03-27-2006, 07:40 AM   #9
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I have a model 94 made in 1949 in 32 Win Special...It shoots 6 inches high at a hundred yards...I just learned to aim that much lower on the target...Once I got used to that I was scoring well...Try this: Take your freshly cleaned gun to the range and fire three shots...Aim at the same spot every time...See how well the gun itself is grouping...All 3 bullets should strike at the same spot unless there are more serious problems...It is a good starting point...Then go from there on remedies...If it doesnt group well, I would then consider rebarreling.
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Old 04-12-2006, 02:33 PM   #10
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This weapon groups well, it just groups high.

Would there be anything gained, or proven, by having it bore sighted with the type that extends the shaft down the bore and then adjust the iron sights? Would this tell me something about the centricity of the bore?
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Old 04-12-2006, 04:56 PM   #11
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Remove any add on magazine or barrel bands that support a sling. There should be a barrel band around the barrel and forend, a forward band around the magazine and barrel and a screw at the end of the magazine to secure it to the barrel. Make sure the screw holding the barrel band on the forearm is tight and that the band towards the end of the magazine tube is secure as well as the screw at the end of the magazine. Loose barrel bands can change how a '94 shoots. The 1970's and early 1980's were not Winchester's finest years. Your father may not have used the rifle because it didn't shoot well but never bothered to return it for warranty service.
 
Old 04-12-2006, 08:32 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E7E
Just get a front sight that is about .150 higher.
Yes, that would be very close if it is the sights. A .120 increase should put you dead on and .150 would give you some adjusting room at the rear sight.

If it were mine, I'd just measure with a caliper and determine if that's the problem. Both the front and rear sight height should be about the same. Here's how it's done.

STEP ONE: Measure diameter of barrel at the front sight. Then divide this diameter in half to determine height from center of bore to top of barrel.

STEP TWO: Measure diameter of barrel at the rear sight. Then divide this diameter in half to determine height from center of bore to top of barrel.

STEP THREE: Measure rear sight height and add to the height determined in Step Two. This gives you the total height of the rear sight from the center of the bore.

STEP FOUR: You now subtract the height from the center of the bore to the top of the barrel determined in Step One from the total height of the rear sight determined in Step Three. The result will tell you the total height the front sight should be to accommodate the rear sight. They should be pretty close.

You can use the reverse if you want to try and get a lower rear sight. It works both ways. However, it would be easier to just replace the front sight. They're cheap and easy to replace!
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Old 04-13-2006, 07:31 AM   #13
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Ok, thanks for the information.

Now, back to the boresighter. If I purchase one and put it on, what am I going to see, and will it help in any way? Or am I just going to see a POI six inches too high?

If I put on a higher front sight, I will have to permanently remove the hood since there will not be enough clearance to resolve the top of the sight and the bottom of the hood.
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Old 04-13-2006, 09:23 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by support_six
If I put on a higher front sight, I will have to permanently remove the hood since there will not be enough clearance to resolve the top of the sight and the bottom of the hood.
You're arguing with yourself!

If it is a sight problem you're going to have to change either the front or rear sight, PERIOD. If the hood has to go then so be it.....

Even if you go to a receiver sight you're going to have to get a higher front sight. There is no other alternative.

Why don't you just measure the sights as I suggested and then come back and tell us what you find and we can go from there. It's pretty easy to do with math and just virtually bore sight it that way rather than buying a boresighter or having a gunsmith do it.

It's really easy to do. If you don't have one go buy a dial caliper at Home Depot or Lowe's for about $ 25 and measure the sight as I've suggested. Once you do that you'll know. I seriously doubt that there is anything wrong with your barrel.....
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Old 04-13-2006, 01:43 PM   #15
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Hutch45, I'm not arguing with myself but I'm a scientist and I have to know "why". You guys are giving me answers to a problem I don't understand yet. It isn't in my nature to just go "fix it" without knowing why it is the way it is. If things were perfect in my world, I'd fix it after I knew: (1) Is this a quality problem from Winchester? (2), if so, how did it happen? (was the bore cut misaligned?). (3) Has anyone had this problem with a Win 94 before and how many?

I can fix it -- you guys told me how. Now how come it's the way it is? Any gunsmiths out there?
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Old 04-13-2006, 05:48 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by support_six
(1) Is this a quality problem from Winchester? (2), if so, how did it happen? (was the bore cut misaligned?). (3) Has anyone had this problem with a Win 94 before and how many?

I can fix it -- you guys told me how. Now how come it's the way it is? Any gunsmiths out there?
OK, I understand your perspective. We don't yet know EXACTLY what the problem is. That's why I've suggested taking measurements to see if it is the sights (which I suspect it is). A gunsmith is not going to know either until he looks at it and takes measurements or you provide measurements of the two sights to determine if that's the problem. When you take those measurements we'll know if there is any need to look further.

Just as a further note of speculation, if it is a problem with the bore you would likely see a very inconsistent Point of Impact. Bullet holes would likely be all over the paper, not just 6" low. There might also be keyhole type signs on your target i.e. the bullet would be hitting the paper sideways or wobbling badly because it's not stabilized and you would see an elongated hole in the paper.

Until you take measurements we're simply speculating. If the sights are the culprit then unless your father changed them Winchester put the wrong front or rear sight on the rifle. As old as it is I doubt they would fix it. Let's eliminated or confirm the sights are the culprit and go from there. You can do this yourself quite easily and avoid the expense of a gunsmith if you choose....
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Old 04-14-2006, 07:14 AM   #17
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Hutch45, good to know. I know dad didn't change anything. I don't think he ever even shot it because he never said anything about it having a sighting problem, and kept it behind the seat in his truck "just in case". I did call Winchester/Browning in Utah and they wouldn't comment on "why", only that they don't have parts to fix a "top eject" model anymore.

I will do the measurements as you suggest. As a scientist, measurements are my life. I'm out on a business trip for a few days so will do so when I get back.

Thanks again,
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Old 07-19-2006, 07:03 AM   #18
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My win 94 trapper was doing the same thing. I tried reducing the tension on the barrel bands then tried tightening them until I found the best position and lock-tited them in place.

It was still high but not as much. In the end I went to a Williams FP
receiver sight and a taller front. I haven't had a problem since.
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Old 11-18-2006, 03:57 PM   #19
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Well, it's months later and I needed to go out shooting today so I took a bunch of firearms (Beretta 96, M1 Garand, Bushmaster AR15), including the Win '94 with me for one more round of "why". I examined the barrel bands tight but not too tight. Loosing them didn't help. I took the stepped elevation slider out of the middle of the sight, again. Still about 5 inches high at 25 meters (I said 6 high before but my groups were tighter today most would be covered by a quarter). I loosened the "semi-buckhorn" sight piece again to see if there was a way to make it lower. No good. The bottom of the buckhorn touches the radius of the bent up portion of the sheet metal sight piece (probably got a name like "sight base" or something). Then I got a bright idea! Why not turn the buckhorn piece around, away from the radiused sight base, so it can move down all the way to the barrel! Sure enough, without the stepped elevation slider it now shot an inch low! First step on the slider brought it right to the center. I'm not sure if this is the way it's supposed to be or not. Before, the two set screws on the buckhorn faced the shooter, now they face towards the muzzel. Anyone got a Winchester with the 1972 type sights (maybe they're all the same), and which way do the screws face?


Problem solved, probably more likely "corrected", and I appreciate all your help in making me look at it from several perspectives.

BTW, anyone know where this thing will be back on target if it's POI is centered at 25 meters? Probably something like 175 yards? Using 170 gr. Remington CorLokt.

Thanks,

Bruce
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Old 11-18-2006, 05:51 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by support_six
BTW, anyone know where this thing will be back on target if it's POI is centered at 25 meters? Probably something like 175 yards? Using 170 gr. Remington CorLokt.
Nah, it will be less than 175 yards. I don't have all of the variables to plot that particular round, but I assure it will be more in the range of 130-140, perhaps a little less where the POI intersects again.

If you're not aware of Hornady's Leverevolution ammo, I'd highly recommend it. It actually turns the 30-30 into a pretty good longer range rifle. For example, a 160 grain Leverevolution rounds trajectory would be as you suggest, but not the 170 grain Corlokt.
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