Gun Hub

Go Back   Gun Hub > Gun Forum > Rifles

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-02-2006, 09:30 AM   #41
Senior Member
 
csmkersh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 9,031
Chevy, there's a lot of things the .308 will do that a .223 won't. If I became a retread, I'd hope I would be armed with an M14 over a M16 any day.
csmkersh is offline  
Old 02-02-2006, 12:24 PM   #42
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by csmkersh
Quote:
Originally Posted by HP Shooter
Quote:
Originally Posted by csmkersh
No kidding, Dean. If HP Shooter would look at the picture Wikipedia uses, he'd see at least the following blunders:
  • 1. Bolt forward
    2. No Mag
    3. No ear plugs
    4. No sights

'Nuff said, HP?
The photo is credited to the US Army. If you have a problem with it, take it up with them.
If they can't get a picture correct, why should we expect any of the rest of it to be correct? As to coming back at you, it was your source.
So, since you appear to know absolutely nothing about the SDM, you take a stock, posed photo of a bare M16A4 to pisck nits?

You, and the other two or three who have responded remind me as to why I hardly come here.

This place is a vacuum of knowledge.
HP Shooter is offline  
Old 02-02-2006, 12:47 PM   #43
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 6,935
*
Quote:
Originally Posted by HP Shooter/SWO daddy
You, and the other two or three who have responded remind me as to why I hardly come here.

This place is a vacuum of knowledge.
Then you'll not miss "this place" in the slightest, #1, and, #2, the Knowledge Quotient will appreciate significantly.

In short, no way, Jose!
Dean Speir is offline  
Old 02-02-2006, 05:31 PM   #44
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,362
Well well well........

OK, is the '14 going away? Yes. It mostly already has. But the question that should be asked is not IF, but WHY.

Patron Dave (as HP Shooter calls him, "the Commanding Officer of the US Army Marksmanship Unit") once opined that one could drive a 55 Chev (IIRC) forever, as long as parts were available, and someone was willing to do the work.

Parts for the '14 are NOT available. We can thank the previous (p)resident for that. Many of the guys in the sandbox are starving for the most basic of parts: mags. That's not a good sign. We all know where all the goodies went, and why.

So are we going to bring back 1950's technology? YES! Is that 1950's technology going to be the M14? No. I don't believe we're that lucky.

The DMR (5.56 NATO) that is currently in use was designed by Dave's boys. I'm sure it's good kit.

Now for the ratguns!

The ratgun was introduced to the military during the development and trials of the T44/T48 (M14 & FAL). It's not "new" technology either. When speaking ill of the "antique" M14, let's recall that the AR10 is almost as old! At the time, it received a very nice "shows potential, but nowhere near ready for prime time".

Back several years ago, Patron Dave told me about being handed a bunch of ratguns (ratgun = large mousegun a-la AR-10, SR-25......) for his guys to evaluate, and how they evaluated them into non-functinal status quickly. Part of the story included no replacement parts. Due to that, and the nature of the experience in general, he deemed that weapon with a new name: the POS9000.

I understand that many things have changed since then, and as well I understand that many more bugs have been located and e-rat-icated. The next 7.62 NATO military weapon will be ratgun based, and as long as it works well, I'm happy for that decision. My bet is that it'll be Dave's boys that design the one that gets standardized as well.

Does that mean that I'll trust the first one off the line? Hardly. But I do recognize the fact that the odds of having an M14 forever are not all that good. Especially the way Sproingfeld Aromry has chosen to do business.

I may wind up using a ratgun in the future, but since my mother never raised any guinea pigs, I'll stick with what I know for a fact works right now. After the ratguns are proven like the M14 proved itself, maybe then.

And lastly for the big 223 / 308 debate.

IMO, the place a 223 wins big is where targets are close. In running the practical rifle stuff, the mousegunners had an advantage within 50 yards, which pretty much had been negated at 100 or so. After that, the time and score (we're not talking highpower spaceguns, we're talking practical battle sticks!) were essentially even, just a bigger hole with much more energy on the 308 targets.

Personally, I feel more comfortable with a rifle. Specifically an M14. For people who live in the cities, or those who live where the green stuff goes vertical, I can see a 223 being entirely sufficient. Out here? There's all the range you could ask for, and a 308 is pretty minimal.
Bravo762 is offline  
Old 02-04-2006, 11:52 AM   #45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: SE Florida
Posts: 3,092
Quote:
Originally Posted by csmkersh
If HP Shooter would look at the picture Wikipedia uses, he'd see at least the following blunders:
  • 1. Bolt forward
    2. No Mag
    3. No ear plugs
    4. No sights
Now Sam!

Bolt forward - No blunder. That's how I store my ARs. No pressure on the springs. And I can load a full mag with the bolt forward or back.

No mag - Obviously the Media Relations Specialist was concerned for the shooter's safety.

No ear plugs - I can't see that far into the lady's ear canal but who's to know for certain?

No sights - Just the rear one! Or it could be the Army's new all-in-one front & rear combo sight!

Blame the Army for that pic, not HP Shooter!

Moe
mjmensale is offline  
Old 02-04-2006, 12:01 PM   #46
Senior Member
 
csmkersh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 9,031
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjmensale
Blame the Army for that pic, not HP Shooter!

Moe
Moe, he made the erroneous assumption I don't know anything about SDM, so why shouldn't I pick nits?
csmkersh is offline  
Old 02-04-2006, 12:09 PM   #47
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: SE Florida
Posts: 3,092
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotansmann
...then up to the AR, an OK gun but the cleaning issues, jamming, and feeding problems...
You either had a POS parts gun and/or you're having flashbacks to the late 60s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotansmann
...with all but the most expensive mags and FMJ high price ammo...
Genuine USGI mags were never expensive if you knew where to shop for them. If you used POS cheapo mags then you brought on the feeding problems yourself.

High price FMJ ammo? Again I'd have to ask where you did your shopping. I remember buying 1,000 round cases for $175/$200 delivered. Today's prices are only slightly higher.

Moe
mjmensale is offline  
Old 02-04-2006, 12:11 PM   #48
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: SE Florida
Posts: 3,092
Quote:
Originally Posted by csmkersh
Moe, he made the erroneous assumption I don't know anything about SDM, so why shouldn't I pick nits?
That's between you and him! I was just having fun with the picture!

Moe
mjmensale is offline  
Old 02-04-2006, 12:22 PM   #49
Senior Member
 
csmkersh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 9,031
Moe, I'm not upset with him, just his source, Wikipedia. HP points out that the info came from the Army and I pointed out they don't always get it right. Went down hill from there. At least the picture is now annotated re: no mag or rear sights.
csmkersh is offline  
Old 02-04-2006, 12:35 PM   #50
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: SE Florida
Posts: 3,092
Re: Stop using 223 after getting a 308.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevyM14
now if I want to shoot .22 I just use my ruger 10/22 because it is about the same has the 223 but it is much less $.
I just can't comprehend those of you that equate the .22LR with the .223 or 5.56. Yes, they are both .22 caliber but that's where the similarities end. That's like saying the WIN .308 and the .338 Lapua Magnum are equals because they're both .30 caliber.

On average, the .223 has 3 times the muzzle velocity and 15 times the energy in ft pounds at 100 yards than the .22LR. A .22LR bullet is 35-40 grains against the 55-77 grain .223 bullet. And the .223 case capacity is humongous against that little rimfire case.

I love my 10/22 for plinking, making holes in paper and whacking coons. But there's no way I would bet my life on it except as a last ditch measure.

I, like most of us, use several different calibers and they each have their place.

Bravo, I might be seeing Patron Dave again soon if he brings his boys to the Orange Blossom Regional at Malabar. I'll let him know you've been throwing his name about with impunity and disregard for his well-being!

Moe
mjmensale is offline  
Old 02-04-2006, 03:43 PM   #51
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,362
Re: Stop using 223 after getting a 308.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjmensale
Bravo, I might be seeing Patron Dave again soon if he brings his boys to the Orange Blossom Regional at Malabar. I'll let him know you've been throwing his name about with impunity and disregard for his well-being!

HA! DOUBLE HA!

Yeah, he's a character and a half! Bet you won't be making short jokes around him though (GRIN).

If you get the chance, pour beer down him and ask about his time in the Korean DMZ and the NK SFs on grad exercises .

Almost takes the sting out of being whupped by a guy with a mousegun when it's someone of Dave's status there shooting.

There's a reason he's got the Patron status! HA!

And you, you miscreant, drop me a line!
Bravo762 is offline  
Old 02-05-2006, 08:15 PM   #52
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjmensale
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotansmann
...then up to the AR, an OK gun but the cleaning issues, jamming, and feeding problems...
You either had a POS parts gun and/or you're having flashbacks to the late 60s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotansmann
...with all but the most expensive mags and FMJ high price ammo...
Genuine USGI mags were never expensive if you knew where to shop for them. If you used POS cheapo mags then you brought on the feeding problems yourself.

High price FMJ ammo? Again I'd have to ask where you did your shopping. I remember buying 1,000 round cases for $175/$200 delivered. Today's prices are only slightly higher.

Moe
First AR - COLT, all Colt SP series from 1980 (so now you know I have LOTS of grey hair) and at the time buying ammo vs. reloading your own could still a bit of a toss up (now surplus ammo cost much less)... and the statement was more to the fact that ONLY FMJ ammo would shoot in that gun reliably. I also like to load my own, and some of the most accurate loads can be with dirty ball powders (see a connection forming here).

And if you remember the early 80's - there was not much to choose from (factory loadings as we have now), and .223.5.56 surplus was not as easy to come by as is now...

I have never had a "parts gun" AR - I hated the damn things so much after the second or third model I was stupid enough to cycle in to the collection that I would never have had a "POS of the POS"....

Mags... well I never had any but mil surplus (or the originals from Colt) and I remember Adventure-line mags and thermould plastic mags worked OK but the Colt marked mags had a slip from time to time that would cause the round to snag inside the receiver and push the bullet into the cartridge case, I had this happen too much with the Colt, Bushmaster, and Olympic. I do remember a few 30 rounders marked Cooper that were particularly bad (but not a cheep mag by measure of price). 20 rounders loaded to 10 rounds worked the best from that first Colt.

I know most of my troubles are or were caused by the fact that I don't like having to lovingly rub, stroke and clean a gun to a sparkling shine to shoot every time I want it to...

You have to admit (and the Designer Stoner admitted this himself) that there are flaws in M-16/AR-15 design and one biggie is the hot dirty gas ported back into the action.

One positive thing I can say revolves around accuracy - when clean and with proper ammo it can be quite accurate - even off the shelf.

Second positive thing I can say is that the AR's I did buy then trade and sell did make me lots of money (or good trades) and I was happy to sell them.

Don't put me into the "hate the mouse gun round" bunch because I do not hate the 5.56/.223. While I PREFER to shoot and hunt with the .308 and .243, paper punching is open for thought - I am particularly fond of the Dawoo, 180, and other AK/FAL'ish action type weapons with this cartridge. as well as turn bolt guns - just not that 16/15 action that was the bastard child of the 10.

KelTec has this SU series of rifles in .223/5.56 that I have thought of for a travel/camp rifle that I may just break down and get for my own use.
Wotansmann is offline  
Old 02-06-2006, 07:11 AM   #53
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: SE Florida
Posts: 3,092
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotansmann
...and at the time buying ammo vs. reloading your own could still a bit of a toss up (now surplus ammo cost much less)... and the statement was more to the fact that ONLY FMJ ammo would shoot in that gun reliably. I also like to load my own, and some of the most accurate loads can be with dirty ball powders (see a connection forming here).
Connection noted!

All I ever run through my Colts is FMJ, M193 specifically, and some EBR subsonic. I shoot too much to be bothered with rolling my own for them. The surplus stuff was cost effective for me.

I don't understand why a lot of people think these guns need a detail cleaning after each shoot. I normally would swab the barrel twice, clean the lug locking area, check the bolt for carbon, blow everything with compressed air and drop some CLP here and there. Maybe 15 minutes per gun and not everytime. Maybe old Colts just run better!

Moe
mjmensale is offline  
Old 02-06-2006, 09:44 AM   #54
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,362
Hey Moe!

How does that stuff from Whit's place work for you? Does it cycle and group well?

On mags, just placed a couple of orders. Incoming are a bakers dozen (enough to try) of the Singapore steel mags. Second order was with Magpul, for the new followers and old style Magpuls.

I figure I'll check 'em out, see how they function. Hopefully......

On the grey, mine is most all in my temples and beard. There's an easy way to deal with it: remain clean-shaven, and haircuts must be performed with a shaver guide shorter than a #2.

My son likes to point out the grey when I get my hair cut. I like to point out that it's him that gave it all to me.
Bravo762 is offline  
Old 02-06-2006, 12:17 PM   #55
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 349
Re: Stop using 223 after getting a 308.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjmensale
I just can't comprehend those of you that equate the .22LR with the .223 or 5.56. Yes, they are both .22 caliber but that's where the similarities end. That's like saying the WIN .308 and the .338 Lapua Magnum are equals because they're both .30 caliber.

On average, the .223 has 3 times the muzzle velocity and 15 times the energy in ft pounds at 100 yards than the .22LR. A .22LR bullet is 35-40 grains against the 55-77 grain .223 bullet. And the .223 case capacity is humongous against that little rimfire case.
I still say this just a very fast .22
ChevyM14 is offline  
Old 02-06-2006, 02:33 PM   #56
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,645
Quote:
blow everything with compressed air
That's ingenious!!!! I could never figure out how to clean that area very well and I use up so many q-tips trying to do it.

My AR15 is a primadonna. I blame it on the tight chamber since it's actually intended to be a target gun. I wouldn't trust my XM15E2 in a combat situation, I'd get a non-match grade AR.
Soda Pop is offline  
Old 02-08-2006, 04:03 PM   #57
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: SE Florida
Posts: 3,092
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bravo762
How does that stuff from Whit's place work for you? Does it cycle and group well?
The EBR 5.56 subsonic doesn't cycle a semi auto and his site specifically mentions that. I've never shot it "for groups" because, well, you wouldn't be shooting "groups" with it! But it is accurate enough as long as you don't try any 500 yard hits with it. The trajectory is more mortar-like than rifle-like. 100-150 yards is about it.

But I just noticed that Whit doesn't list it anymore. He's only got the frangible 5.56 stuff on his site now. Which means one of two things.

A - He doesn't carry it anymore. But I don't see why not.

B - He's getting ready to introduce a 5.56 that DOES cycle a semi auto. There was some talk about that from him a year or so ago. THAT would be cool - as long as you could afford it.

Moe
mjmensale is offline  
Old 02-08-2006, 05:05 PM   #58
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 568
I 'd like to add a couple of comments here in response to the original statement about not shooting .223 after shooting .308, and about the picture of the army gal with the M16.
I personally think that anyone who bases their opinion of the usefullness of a particular cartridge on how much better it destroys a concrete block (or some other "coolness" factor) isn't very well educated about cartridges and firearms in general...I think that's evident. The .223 has its place and when used within its limitations is a good cartridge. There's no reason to stop using it simply because it doesn't perform the same way on a concrete block that a .308 does...duh! What a ridiculous statement!
The pic of the army gal is obviously posed. I've seen lots of posed "gun" pictures that didn't illustrate what we normally consider proper gun handling. I've posed for a few myself...bolt forward, locked back, empty mag, no mag, ejection port cover closed, open...whatever, as long as the weapon had an empty chamber and a loaded magazine was not inserted. The rifle used may have been the only one accessible at the time and the photographer probably wouldn't know any better. The person being depicted probably didn't think or care about the impression the photo might make on more "gunny" types who do know better. She might well have been thinking..."Take the stupid picture already and let me get back to what I was doing before this dog and pony show got started." So I don't see the picture as anything but typical.
I guess I'm done.
catmguy is offline  
Old 02-09-2006, 06:20 AM   #59
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 349
Quote:
Originally Posted by catmguy
I personally think that anyone who bases their opinion of the usefullness of a particular cartridge on how much better it destroys a concrete block (or some other "coolness" factor) isn't very well educated about cartridges and firearms in general...I think that's evident. The .223 has its place and when used within its limitations is a good cartridge. There's no reason to stop using it simply because it doesn't perform the same way on a concrete block that a .308 does...duh! What a ridiculous statement!
When I shoot things, I shoot them to destroy them! I not shoot them because I want to put a very small hole in them, I shoot them because I want to see them explode, rip in two and pop 10 feet off the ground! now the .223 and the .308 are about the same price for surplus and that are about the same in accurse, so it dos not make any defenses when target shooting, if anything the .308 go longer so it is better for target shooting. So I donít see any need for ME to us a .223. That is what this post is all about. "I donít see the need to use the .223, dos anyone also feels this way." BTW guns are made to KILL, and DESTROY!!! They are not made to put holes in paper even thow that is what most people use them for. So what better way to judge how good a cal. is then buy see how it destroys things! Also I have a .243 Rem. 700 that I use to put holes in paper and it works better then a .223, so one agene I donít have any use for the .223. The ONLY thing that the .223 is better at then the .308 is that it only ways about 1/3 of what a .308 is any someone can carry 3 times that amount of them.
Sorry to rant but I think people stated to miss the point of this thread
ChevyM14 is offline  
Old 02-09-2006, 09:30 AM   #60
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 568
I think we get it now.
catmguy is offline  
Reply

  Gun Hub > Gun Forum > Rifles


Search tags for this page

can a 308 stop a person

,

stop 223

,

stop a 223

,

what will stop a 308 rifle


Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Somebody Stop Me !!! JAS M1 Garand 17 10-09-2006 12:07 PM
How do you install the slide stop and slide stop spring? Hawgtroop M1 Carbine 4 01-30-2006 05:24 AM
God help me! I cannot stop! IronBack M1 Carbine 3 11-02-2005 08:23 AM
Will it ever stop? DaveE M1 Garand 8 01-07-2005 01:10 PM
Somebody Stop Me.... JAP Semi Auto 3 09-14-2004 04:56 PM




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2002 - 2014 Gun Hub. All rights reserved.