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Old 12-30-2011, 05:16 AM   #41
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How do the various grades of shot compare for wall/barrier penetration?
----
Regarding bird-shot; it's also much more defensible than buckshot in a civil "wrongful-death/aggravated assault" case, which is all too common after a successful self-defense action.
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Old 12-30-2011, 05:36 AM   #42
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shep854,

at "in the house" ranges i seriously doubt that the size of shot makes much, if any, difference in penetrating an interior (sheetrock & 2x4 studs) wall, as that little wad of shot will go straight through.

as to your other question, i know of NO instance where "shot size" was a REAL determinent in a "righteous" self-defense shooting incident, whether you are talking about a criminal or civil case.
(if anyone can cite such a case, i would be VERY interested in reading it.)

yours, sw
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Old 12-30-2011, 06:14 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by shep854 View Post
Thankfully, my experience in these situations is reading about them, so please be kind...
Reading (and logic) also indicate that at home-defense ranges, shotguns also give the user wide latitude in ammo. After all, at the 10 yards or so you get inside a house, even birdshot will still be a pretty solid mass of lead ( which still needs to be aimed , along with the advantages of low cost (compared to the primo SD loads) and the all-important reduced wall penetration.
Begging to differ...
  1. With a typical 18- to 20-inch "riot gun," a column of buckshot remains together for about one yard and - absent special boring or choke - tends to spread about one inch per additional yard from the muzzle. Perhaps these figures differ when birdshot is fired from a barrel designed to deliver a pattern to a duck or a goose but I would not expect a denser pattern from a shotgun with an Improved Cylinder bore with birdshot than with buckshot.
  2. If you truly believe that using birdshot will give you "all-important reduced wall penetration," you must realize that it will also give you much more reduced "more-important felon penetration." During my Vietnam-era Army service, I met a guy who was two or three weeks out from a failed stockade escape. He had been shot with birdshot going over a fence and was captured only because he was spotted hiding later. He was popping birdshot pellets out of his skin, much like popping pimples. Granted that they were being fired from towers, but the California Department of Corrections stopped using birdshot-laden shotguns after the inmates realized that the small pellets could be stopped by wrapping a few layers of magazines or newspapers under their clothing. You may want to do some pattern and penetration testing of your own if you intend to rely on birdshot out to ten yards. In my opinion, at the distances where it will neutralize a threat, the threat has a good chance of reaching out and grabbing the muzzle of your shotgun.
  3. The answer to penetration of indoor walls is to make sure you hit your intended target. Me? I prefer the single projectile of a .223 carbine for that, particularly if I get one of the increasing number of criminals using soft body armor inside the house.
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Old 12-30-2011, 06:26 AM   #44
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My thinking about shot size/court was based on some of Mas' accounts of attempts to demonize defendants by emphasizing ammunition choices; the same thinking that discourages the use of handloads for SD. This is the same rationale behind the old Black Talon hysteria.
I know this particular issue is quite contentious, and I hope I'm not coming across that way, but it is something to consider.
----
If a shoulder arm is going to be used for HD, it might also pay to give attention to close combat techniques; ie, using the gun as a contact weapon. Think, bayonet-fighting sans bayonet. In the dark and confusion of a home invasion, the bad guy could get into grappling distance. If you k ow what to do, you can hurt the BG badly, even if you can't get a shot off.
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Old 12-30-2011, 06:44 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shep854 View Post
My thinking about shot size/court was based on some of Mas' accounts of attempts to demonize defendants by emphasizing ammunition choices; the same thinking that discourages the use of handloads for SD. This is the same rationale behind the old Black Talon hysteria.
I know this particular issue is quite contentious, and I hope I'm not coming across that way, but it is something to consider.
I am a graduate of the first LFI-IV course and actually taught with Mas for several years. My recollection is that he always cautioned against the use of birdshot for defensive purposes, for very much the reasons I outlined.

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If a shoulder arm is going to be used for HD, it might also pay to give attention to close combat techniques; ie, using the gun as a contact weapon. Think, bayonet-fighting sans bayonet. In the dark and confusion of a home invasion, the bad guy could get into grappling distance. If you k ow what to do, you can hurt the BG badly, even if you can't get a shot off.
If you wish to cite Mas, unless his doctrine has changed, I believe you will find that he has consistently cautioned that a long gun is much harder to defend against a gun-grab than a handgun.

If you're close enough to jab someone with the muzzle of a long gun and he has not yet diverted the muzzle, you should also have the ability to shoot him. The only reasons to downgrade your firearm to an impact weapon at that point would be to take a prisoner for interrogation (think military environment) or to try - at the risk of your life and those of your family members - to avoid the legal mess for shooting him (think states that lack castle doctrines).
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Old 12-30-2011, 06:46 AM   #46
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shep854,

i don't disagree with your posts, except i still think that "in town" use of a MBR is an unwise thing.

fwiw, vertical/horizontal buttstrokes are EFFECTIVE, if practiced, at "touching range". - fyi, most of us current/former GIs learned those tactics in the first 8 weeks of initial training.

yours, sw
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Old 12-30-2011, 06:57 AM   #47
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fwiw, vertical/horizontal buttstrokes are EFFECTIVE, if practiced, at "touching range". - fyi, most of us current/former GIs learned those tactics in the first 8 weeks of initial training.
FWIW, those of use who may still recall the bayonet course from way back when may want to put those techniques into perspective: When the enemy has his own hands filled with his own presumably empty (or diverted) rifle,they are not free to grab hold of your rifle (or shotgun).

To paraphrase that real-estate slogan about location, context is everything.
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Old 12-30-2011, 08:01 AM   #48
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The lack of adolescent chest-thumping and name-calling is what makes this site such a great learning resource!

The nub of this discussion (to me, anyway) is that one size DEFINITELY does not fit all, and that (practiced) options are good.

Spwenger, for the reasons you noted, I keep a handgun at my bedside. I'm stuck in a "paper-wall" apartment (knowing way more about some neighbor's personal like than I like ), so I simply keep my J-frame CCW by my bed. Reading and thinking about this thread, I think I'll go back to loading Glasers for night-time. There's also the grappling issue; ISTR reading where Mas mentioned that a snub is easier to retain than a "standard" handgun, since there's less barrel for an assailant to grab.
----
A stoppage is one case where close combat skills could be a lifesaver.
----
Attending LFI-1, or its current equivalent, is absolutely on my "want" list.
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Old 12-30-2011, 08:12 AM   #49
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There's also the grappling issue; ISTR reading where Mas mentioned that a snub is easier to retain than a "standard" handgun, since there's less barrel for an assailant to grab.
My recollection is that Mas claimed that the relative advantage of a short-barrel in a gun-grab ends at two inches, with no significant advantage to the defender from a 2" barrel, such as the ones on S&W 19's and 66's. The flip side, however, is the other side of the lever, with the defender gaining advantage from a full-length grip, such as with a two-inch K-frame revolver with an oversize grip that has space for the three remaining fingers of the hand.

(During my years with LFI, I was certified to "Advanced Trainer" in Handgun/Long Gun Retention and Disarming but will cop to not remembering much of the long-gun stuff.)

Boy, speaking of thread drift...

Last edited by spwenger; 12-30-2011 at 08:12 AM. Reason: Added comment about thread drift.
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Old 12-30-2011, 08:28 AM   #50
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This drift is mild, compared to some... At least we're still discussing home defense.
Thanks to everyone for patiently responding to my comments and questions.
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Old 12-30-2011, 03:13 PM   #51
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Glasers do not always self destruct inside drywall. I had a ladyfriend at one time who made the mistake of not visually/feel checking her revolver after "unloading" it prior to dryfire practice. The Glaser made it into the next living space intact, albiet causing no harm other than questions about where the holes in the walls came from.

I've got other concerns about the (Glaser) product after using it to put down a statistically significant number of critters on farms. Your best bet is to use a quality JHP and practice sufficiently that misses at room distance are unlikely. If it's robust enough to cause lethal injury, drywall won't stop it.

I load tactical/reduced recoil 00 for serious purposes, they named small shot "bird shot" for a reason. I do conceed that #1 buck is probably a better close range crusher, if only because there's a whole lot more weight of shot in the charge than with 00. (If you doubt this last, check out a book on reloading shotgun shells on weight per pellet and number of pellets per shell.)
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Old 01-03-2012, 07:29 AM   #52
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WilliamRMoore,

fwiw, i do NOT trust glasers to STOP a gunfight. - i attended the autopsy of a bank robber (while i was employed at the NOLACSO), who was shot TWICE in the torso, from about 25 feet, by a bank guard (out of a 4" S&W Model 65). - he "bled out" about 20 minutes after the shooting, after running out to the car & driving away.

may i remind you that you can cause a lot of carnage in 20 minutes?

yours, sw
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Old 01-03-2012, 07:52 AM   #53
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Got it: Glasers out, HPs (good ones, natch) in.
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Old 01-03-2012, 10:56 AM   #54
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shep854,

EXACTLY!

for my beloved P6 Sig, i use the NONplus P 115grain "mini flying ashtrays" & do NOT feel "underarmed".
anything that cannot be stopped with those is a job for a riotgun w/buckshot, imVho.

yours, sw

Last edited by stand watie; 01-03-2012 at 02:21 PM. Reason: missing words
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Old 01-03-2012, 11:46 AM   #55
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shep854,

EXACTLY!

for my beloved P6 Sig, i use "mini flying ashtrays" & do NOT feel "underarmed".
anything that cannot be stopped with those is a job for a riotgun w/buckshot, imVho.

yours, sw
It seemed like a good idea; I've had those Glasers for several years now; I'm sure they are still good, they were never exposed to temp extremes.
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Old 01-03-2012, 02:24 PM   #56
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shep854,

i'm sure you're correct. otoh, i wouldn't bet my life on glasers, after what i saw.
(in the sad event that i had to shoot someone, i don't want them to have 20 minutes to do something awful.)

yours, sw
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Old 01-03-2012, 02:56 PM   #57
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shep854,

i'm sure you're correct. otoh, i wouldn't bet my life on glasers, after what i saw.
(in the sad event that i had to shoot someone, i don't want them to have 20 minutes to do something awful.)

yours, sw
Which brings us back to that "So easy to say, so hard to DO"--Placement, placement, PLACEMENT!--as often as necessary.
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Old 01-03-2012, 04:16 PM   #58
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shep854,

also correct.

yours, sw
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Old 01-03-2012, 04:23 PM   #59
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shep854,

also correct.

yours, sw
Here's fervently hoping none of us ever have to find out for real!
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Old 01-03-2012, 08:51 PM   #60
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shep854,

exactly so.- i've been IN a shooting incident or 2 & don't want at my age to be in another. - wasn't "a real fun thing".

yours, sw
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