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Old 09-02-2011, 06:29 AM   #21
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i can't imagine a situation where you'd need 10-11 rounds of 44 mag( which is what my trapper carries btw) unless you were up against a biker ganng or something- even then, i'd still be fighting FROM the 44 mag TO an m14- way back when i was enlisted, the self defense was old slabsides, and when you could get to it, the m14- seems , in retrospect, we were pretty well equipped- for those of you who MUST go prone, a semi verson of the FG42 would be the ticket( who notes it feeds from the side)
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Old 09-02-2011, 12:55 PM   #22
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In FL we have an Assault Weapons Law, sigh.
It was enacted by the People. To use a weapon with a detachable box mag in semi-auto may get you 20 years, depending on the circumstances and the politics of the persecutor.

Geoff
Who uses a pump 20-gauge, with buckshot.
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Old 09-24-2011, 03:01 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by t-star View Post
i can't imagine a situation where you'd need 10-11 rounds of 44 mag( which is what my trapper carries btw) unless you were up against a biker ganng or something-
Here in FL home invasions have been done by gangs of 6 and more! The smaller gangs don't even make the TV news anymore.

Geoff
Who backs up the shotgun with a SWaMPy 9.
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Old 09-24-2011, 08:09 AM   #24
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i don't know about fl, but a lot of these home invasions would go nowhere if a person USED THE PEEPHOLE and DIDN'T OPEN THE DOOR- the auto lights goes without saying-
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Old 09-24-2011, 10:49 AM   #25
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to all,

MY choice is my trusted Garand anytime that SHMTF, teamed up (at close range) with my "sawed off" 12guage double & P6.

yours, sw
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Old 09-24-2011, 12:45 PM   #26
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For a "best of both worlds" offering, consider the humble M1 carbine. It is a 7.62 semi-auto , but in a form that provides good close-range performance, but won't zip through half the houses in your neighborhood
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Old 12-24-2011, 04:11 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by shep854 View Post
For a "best of both worlds" offering, consider the humble M1 carbine. It is a 7.62 semi-auto , but in a form that provides good close-range performance, but won't zip through half the houses in your neighborhood
That's mine Shep.I keep one buy the bed easy function and easy to control.Point and shoot!!
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Old 12-24-2011, 04:55 AM   #28
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A para folding stock is on my want list, to make the little jewel even handier--plus, it looks good!
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Old 12-24-2011, 05:57 AM   #29
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A para folding stock is on my want list, to make the little jewel even handier--plus, it looks good!
Yea I got one of the Italian repo's on mine but I also have a IO stamped full stock to match the rest of the rifle
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Old 12-24-2011, 06:58 AM   #30
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Nobody loves lever guns more than I do, but for self defense the semi-auto is way ahead of any manual action rifle. When it hits the fan, the ability to pour on ACCURATE fire is paramount. To begin with, you may not have the initiateive, but with a steady stream of accurate fire, you can steal the initiative away from an aggressor.

Reality shows that you may not be able to put a round onto your foe, but if you can suppress him enough, you may be able to keep him from shooting you, which is a mission kill for your foe.

No one has ever won a battle by reacting to what the other guy is doing. You need to steal the initiative and get them to be reactive.

In almost any combat situation, a semi-auto is superior to all other firearms. But only if accuracy doesn't suffer.

So, now that I have said that...If I didn't have a good semi-auto available, I'd reach for my Winchester 94 in a heartbeat. I have yet to see ANY rifle shoulder and point more naturally than the humble '94. Makes those first round hits (you know, the important one) much easier.

Come on, are we talking self defense or repelling the the invading Mongol Hoard?

You are accountable for each and every projectile you let loose. Laying down suppressive fire in a neighborhood will get YOU in deep doo-doo.

Pistol caliber lever actions were very effective in the old west and remain so today for those of us who are not suffering Rambo delusions. They are less stigmatic in the eyes of law enforcement than the evil Assault Rifle.

Several well know instructors now offer classes in defensive lever action. If there was no demand they would not be offering them.

One last point depending on the game laws in your area, the lever is more likely to be a legal hunting rifle than the AK should you ever need to venture into the hunting field.
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Old 12-24-2011, 07:41 AM   #31
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jdh,

as i'm now in SanAntonio, i would want a Model 37 Ithaca Featherweight Riot-Gun loaded with #1 Buck for home defense,backed up with my Sig-Sauer P6.
(for the time being, my "first line of defense" is my sawed-off 12guage double.)

to me, you are asking for trouble using a MBR in town & might well hit an innocent civilian blocks away, by accident.

yours, sw

Last edited by stand watie; 12-24-2011 at 06:54 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 12-24-2011, 07:57 AM   #32
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Another point for the M1 carbine. The .30 Carbine cartridge is essentially a hot pistol round; with an expanding bullet, penetration of solid barriers is limited.
While one should always seek to deliver aimed shots, the speed, confusion and sheer terror of a violent home invasion may call for some form of point-shooting. The fast follow-up shots from a self-loading carbine could well be a life-saver for the victim.
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Old 12-24-2011, 08:31 AM   #33
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I sure am glad that someone finally brought up the point of over-penetration in this debate. Even though I live "in the county", I have several neighbors well within rifle range. I live in a mobile home - a BIG mobile home, but a mobile home nonetheless. And I have LOTS of windows. My AK is for fun and repelling hordes of fanatical islamists.

Really, I have no illusions that there is a very real possibility that I could actually MISS a shot on a moving target at oh dark thirty with my heart beating at 220 and dodging in-coming fire.

A lever gun in pistol caliber, an M-1 carbine (wish I still had mine!) or a shotgun should be more than sufficient for home defense.

Personally, I grab my 1911 or my Model 19 when things go bump in the night (or when my chocolate lab starts barking her head off). My double barrel 12 gauge is my heavy artillery.
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Old 12-24-2011, 12:02 PM   #34
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A Few Comments

  • An additional factor you may want to consider is the potential jury pool in your neck of the woods. If you are ever forced to use it, a lever-action gun that looks like the one Grandpa used to use on deer may sit better with the jurors.
  • Detachable magazines are great - so long as you've got some and they are not damaged. As with a DA revolvers, the lever gun can be loaded with loose rounds, carried in a pocket or pouch. If you loose or damage the last magazine for your autoloader, you end up with a single-shot.
  • If you own a Winchester 94 chambered for a revolver cartridge, order at least one replacement carrier from Browning, for the appropriate caliber, while they're still available. The groove that correctly positions the shorter cartridge seems to create a weak spot, making that part the weak link.
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Old 12-24-2011, 12:45 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stand watie View Post
jdh,

as i'm now in SanAntonio, i would want a Model 37 Ithaca Featherweight Riot-Gun loaded with #1 Buck for home defense,backed up with my Sig-Sauer P6.
(for the time being, my "first line of defense is my sawed-off 12guage double.)
I'm getting too lazy to pump in my old age so I prefer an 11-87P. However since I now reside on 3+ acres in the Piney woods the needs have changed. They still do not include laying down suppressive fire contrary to what some on here believe is necessary. The chicken coop was (before the fire) about 75 yards from the house. Too far to do a coyote-ectomy with the shotgun. I had (again before the fire) a Marlin 1984 in 41 mag for such work.


Quote:
Originally Posted by stand watie View Post
to me, you are asking for trouble using a MBR in town & might well hit an innocent civilian blocks away, by accident.

yours, sw
As I was trying to point out in the reply about being accountable for every projectile you let loose.


Should the Zombies or mongol hoards attack I have other options. If it ever gets to that point we will have bigger problems than choosing between lever or spray and pray.
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Old 12-24-2011, 07:12 PM   #36
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jdh,

i once (about 25 years ago) investigated the accidental shooting of a civilian, who was SERIOUSLY wounded by a M1A (civilian version of the M-14) rifle in the hands of an Army MSG, who returned fire at an armed intruder & hit a fellow (who was out at midnight, walking his poodle) over 300M away from the shooting site. - he was NOT charged/courtmartialed by the local Military Judge BUT he was sued by the family of the civilian, who got shot by accident & spent well over 2 years time/salary getting the case dismissed.

NOT an activity that i'd like to participate in, so i'll stick to my shotgun/pistol in the city, if i have to get involved in such a shooting incident!
(i once, as some here know, was involved in a shooting incident, on our family farm at night, facing 4 armed local thugs. i fired ONE round of #1 Buck from a covered/concealed location, which ended the incident. -MOST thugs choose NOT to face a determined person (inside a structure) who is armed with a shotgun, as they have some idea what a scattergun will DO! - imVho, any incident that cannot be ended with a shotgun/handgun is a situation where you need an armed response force to come to your aid.)

yours, sw
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Old 12-29-2011, 09:26 PM   #37
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Not to make light of your mentioned situation, but you touched on something when you said "have some idea of what a scattergun can do".

The myth and legend of what a (sawed off) shotgun can do has undoubtably helped a great many folks over time. I do not say this disparagingly, a short-barrelled shotgun of one type or another has been a great help in my getting to be a senior citizen.
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Old 12-30-2011, 03:59 AM   #38
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William R Moore,

aside from its lack of long-distance killing power (which MAY mean that you don't injure or kill a distant/innocent bystander), a shotgun is:
1. intimidating enough that you may not have to fire even once,
2. easier to hit with at night, IF you HAVE to actually fire
(especially if the barrel has no "choke")
3. SOUNDS very intimidating to an armed adversary, especially at night
and
4. generally more lethal to 25M than a typical handgun, with the right choice of ammo.

when i was a LEO, my old double stopped many a likely confrontation before things got completely out of hand.
(most any situation, where the criminal ends up in custody & the LEO goes home at "end of shift", uninjured, is a success, imVho.)

yours, sw
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Old 12-30-2011, 04:36 AM   #39
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Thankfully, my experience in these situations is reading about them, so please be kind...
Reading (and logic) also indicate that at home-defense ranges, shotguns also give the user wide latitude in ammo. After all, at the 10 yards or so you get inside a house, even birdshot will still be a pretty solid mass of lead ( which still needs to be aimed , along with the advantages of low cost (compared to the primo SD loads) and the all-important reduced wall penetration.
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Old 12-30-2011, 05:04 AM   #40
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shep854,

at 10M or less, you are 100% CORRECT! otoh, out at 25-30M, at least #2 goose shot or buckshot is CLEARLY superior to birdshot or #4 duckshot to stop a determined "badguy".
(btw, we wild/vulgar Texicans call such persons a somewhat more "colorful" name.)

otoh, my opinion is that 00Buck is UNSUITABLE for "serious social purposes" in the city. - i prefer #1B or #4B.

yours, sw
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