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Old 12-29-2006, 07:30 PM   #1
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H&R M14/M1A

Hey all,

I came accross a H&R M1A in very nice condition, but not artificially so. Walnut GI Stock nicely finished. OpRod rail on receiver has notches cut in it. No fake selector.

I missed out on a nice reweld years ago, and would like to get one while they are still available.

I'm a Garand guy so please forgive my ignorance or any elementary questions.

I know that all H&R semi Autos are or should be re-welds, but my questions are:

1) Can you verify the legality of the reweld..
2) If Legit, how much should I expect to pay.

Thanks in advance.... and Happy New Year!

Gerry
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Old 12-29-2006, 11:37 PM   #2
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Do not proceed with any purchase plans until board member Different has replied to this post.

Or send him a PM

There are major issues on the M14 rewelded units...legal issues in some cases and quality/legal ones in others
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Old 12-30-2006, 02:31 AM   #3
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Thanks Gerard,

I'll try to contact Different.

Best,

Gerry
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Old 12-30-2006, 02:37 AM   #4
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Re: H&R M14/M1A

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTargetFL
OpRod rail on receiver has notches cut in it. No fake selector. I know that all H&R semi Autos are or should be re-welds
I understand the following:

You saw a Harrington & Richardson M14 rifle with a welded receiver. The receiver has no selector shaft or lug but it does have the operating rod rail machining cuts in the center and at the underside forward end.

The BATFE considers such a rifle a machine gun. If there's no ATF Form 3 or Form 4 to accompany it, it's illegal. And if there is a Form 3 or Form 4 for it, there's no sense in paying machine gun price for a semi-auto rifle.

Bottom line, RUN AWAY!
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Old 12-30-2006, 09:04 AM   #5
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Does it have a stamp "Hahn Machine" on the left side?

Hahn Machine sold rewelds from about the mid 80 to mid 90s and AFAIK, they are legal. The ones I have seen have the op rod dismount notch in the middle like you describe.


Do a search. There have been some pictures posted of Hahn receivers.
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Old 12-30-2006, 09:30 AM   #6
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Careful with the Hahn Machine welded M14 rifles. I have a copy of the letter sent to Hahn Machine from the BATF. It's a lengthy letter with very specific requirements for the "conversion" process. The letter requires the operating rod rail center dismount notch and forward underside groove to be filled in.

You're correct, some Hahn Machine welded receivers don't have the operating rod rail cuts filled in. IMO, I wouldn't push my luck with such a receiver. The BATFE prevailed against the MKS welded M14 rifles this year in the federal 6th and 9th Apellate Courts. E-mail me for the court decisions if you want. I have them in .pdf format.
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Old 12-30-2006, 11:07 AM   #7
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Of the 5 Hahns I have seen (2 in person, 3 pictures), none of them had the center dismount notch in the op rod rail filled in. I thought this was strange as it seems to me that the op rod might dismount during operation.

I always wondered why this experience doesn't jive with the specifics of the letter. Did the BATFE specifications change over the period of his manufacture? Did he have 2 letters; one early and one later?

I have read the MKS legal stuff and it isn't clear that any of it applies to the Hahns. MK didn't ask for the BATFE opinion of the legality of his product and he was apparently not aware that the demil standards had changed (3 cuts required rather than 1) and in particular it seems that he screwed up by moving and reattaching the selector lug. In any event ex post facto law is proscribed in the US constitution, so even if the law changed later, the Hahns are grandfathered if they were legal when they were made. I wouldn 't particlarly want one even without the confusion regarding their status.
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Old 12-30-2006, 11:19 AM   #8
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AFAIK, Hahn Machine had the one BATF letter dated June 08, 1994. Perhaps he had another letter but I have no information to support that hypothesis. I quote from the June 08, 1994 letter,

"First, and most importantly, prior to any assembly or joining of the receiver sections, the selector lever tab located at the right rear must be removed, the cutout on the operating rod rail must be filled in by welding, and the slot on the front underside of the operating rod rail must be filled in, also by weld. Once these prerequisites are met, the receiver sections may be joined, forming an M1A type semiautomatic receiver."

I agree with you regarding the MKS receivers. MKS had no BATF letter. I was making the point that the BATFE will pursue an unregistered M14 type receiver that has the operating rod rail machining cuts.

Disclaimer: The above is a historical discussion. No illegal activities are condoned. DO NOT attempt to form a receiver by any means using two scraps of metal formerly in existence as a homogenous M14 receiver.
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Old 12-30-2006, 11:48 AM   #9
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I am pretty sure that LLoyd was selling them well before 1994, as I remember seeing his ad in SGN in about 1990 at the time I was shopping for my SA Inc. I agree that ATF would have gone after him, just like they did MKS, if they thought he was selling anything that wasn't kosher.
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Old 12-30-2006, 11:54 AM   #10
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WhiskeyTango, thanks for the input. It helps quite a bit.
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Old 12-30-2006, 07:04 PM   #11
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Different, Whiskey, all....

Thank you. I did not buy the rifle today. I sold a M1941 Johnson, and had cas burning in my pocket. I will wait....

I own several M1A type rifles, but would love to own one... even if leagally welded, that was once a true military rifle. I would never consider it if there was even a slight chance that the rifle is contraband.

I will examine the rifle more closely, but it does look like the receiver with cuts left in.... I will look for stamps, etc, and try to get some history.

Thanks and best regards,

Gerry
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Old 01-02-2007, 09:31 PM   #12
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Awhile back...think 2 years ago, one of the guys that shoots Highpower at my local range showed up with a class 3 legally registered selector Win M-14. Would you believe he said he got it from out west at a museum where it had been donated as the museum specialized in Winchester guns....can't remember what he paid for it, but when he told us the $ figure everyone's jaw dropped....CHEAP!!! Guess they felt it wasn't appropriate for a wild west display! Granted, he said he bought it 20 some years ago, why can't this be the norm???????
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