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Old 12-17-2004, 08:45 AM   #1
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Odd Operating slide

Has anyone ever seen a E279 (Riesch type 3) slide with the number stamped on the bottom that is normally associated with the L379 (Riesch type 5) slide? This is an Underwood stamped ".U." in a circle. It also has the ordnance bomb stamped in the usual location near the slide stop. I believe that tthe reason why it is stamped such is that the cam cut at the rear of the slide is like that of the L379. I think it is supposed to increase the dwell time. While I did not not take a picture of the whole slide, you should be able to tell it is an E279 by the arm joint.

[img=align]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/TheFox/P0004038.jpg[/img]
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Old 12-17-2004, 02:20 PM   #2
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I don't recall ever seeing something like that. From the narrow arm juncture, it certainly doesn't look like a late, angled, cam slide.

The cam was 'angled' in order to serve two purposes: Provide a deflection point so that extracted brass would be ejected to the right side, and, increase dwell time before the bolt opened---helping to alleviate the problem of breech flash during night-time firing.
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Old 12-17-2004, 03:45 PM   #3
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Most likely a transitional slide, as the changes were coming hot & heavy. I never believed the changes were done in tandem due to several slides like this one. That's a type 3 arm joint, with a type 5 cam, so perhaps the cam change order came through before the arm joint change, with the number denoting the cam change only?
One of the problems I've noticed with the books and other references, is that they assume, from a small sampling pool, that the change orders incorporated several manufacturing operations in them. I've seen slides like this one over the years, and speculated that the subs and contractors implemented them one at a time over a period of several months. Those that waited were able to incorporate them all at once, those that didn't have transitional models of the same part, possibly three types until we get to the type 5. NPM is another oddity, as it is assumed that they went from a type 2 to a type 4 arm joint, but retained the partial circle at the back (N9), and didn't include the other changes seen in a type 4 or 5. How they implemented the change orders would explain these questions, or HOW they received the change orders. We've always believed that Springfield Armory was the clearing house for changes, and that they notified each manufacturer simultaneously, but perhaps not? Sure makes you wonder.
 
Old 12-17-2004, 05:08 PM   #4
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Parts were made in house and parts were made by subcontractors. In house manufacturers like Underwood could respond quickly to design change but a subcontractor would not change without a change order for the original quantity ordered and change only after a "New Netogiated Price". I am sure the primes were not keen on increased cost from subcontractors. So I think manufacturers with a lot of subcontractors had more early parts and slower to change to new revised parts than others like Inland.
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Old 12-18-2004, 12:40 AM   #5
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Good points Bolo-7, and with most the slide WAS an inside operation most of the time. The NPM N9 is also odd in that NPM made their own slides as did Underwood, it would be easier explained if it was a subcontractor who wanted to renegotiate. Many changes also required retooling and changing the machining steps which may have affected how the equipment was placed. This is what caused the slowdowns in 1944 production, as the changes overwhelmed the production lines. Knowing how the manufacturers fought some of these changes would probably explain some of them, as would existing inventory. If you had a slide already made up and only had to machine in the cam area to meet one of the changes, surely you would use those up before starting on the new one? Especially those who had bid each rifle and weren't on a cost-plus basis, they were always more cost conscious than the cost-plus companies. There are probably several reasons why we see these oddities, and why we say "never say never with the Carbine" so often. There are almost always exceptions to every rule one tries to come up with, and war time production probably account for most of them. It's fun to speculate though.
 
Old 12-18-2004, 06:56 AM   #6
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I should probably clarify a little bit. The only difference between this slide and the normal E279 slide (Riesch type 3) is the cut of the cam. It does not have the "6 o'clock" slide appearance. I think the photo will explain best. The slide at left has the "7160091" number.

Actually there is one other difference between these two slides. The modified slide has a extra mill cut at the back of the box where the piston contacts it. These two cuts allow the slide to sit farther forward than the earlier slide did. So when the carbine was fired it took slightly longer for the slide to begin to open the bolt. Does that all make sense to everyone?

The thing that puzzles me a bit is that I why is this on a E279 slide? I could see it on a E379 slide which had the thicker arm joint but not the "6 o'clock" slide rear. Was Underwood making E279 and E379 slides at the same time?
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File Type: jpg slide2.jpg (39.2 KB, 186 views)
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Old 12-18-2004, 01:09 PM   #7
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That's the point I was making newscotlander (great closeups by the way), although I mixed in some other info. Wouldn't it make sense, if you already had a batch of E279 slides and you received a change order that only required removing a small amount of metal from the cam cut, to go ahead and do this? You could implement the change quickly by modifying existing parts, and then stamp the bottom denoting the change. It is possible this change order came in before the others, or was easily adapted to existing stocks. What I find curious, is the PI underline type 5 slide I have without the part/change number on it, that incorporates all the changes we have usually associated with the D7160091 designation. It would seem to me, the 7160091 may denote the cam cut, while the D7160091 denotes something else perhaps the wider arm joint or angled hood, while the absence of the number may denote something else again, perhaps the incorporation of all three changes, cam cut-wider arm joint and angled hood? I've always wondered why some have the letter and some don't.
 
Old 12-18-2004, 02:02 PM   #8
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Here is a pic of a couple oddities, as mentioned above. We were originally discussing markings on the bottom of slides when I took this, but it shows type 4 & 5 PI underlined slides, with no numbers. The type 4 has the cam cut and wider arm joint, but straight top and the type five has those with the angled top. However, I noticed the angle on the right of the type 4 box is different, looking from the front, the right side has an angled cut while the left is rounded. On the type 5, both sides are rounded. I wonder what this was for? Any thoughts on this or the missing numbers?
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File Type: jpg Slide markings 500x374.jpg (50.8 KB, 190 views)
 
Old 12-19-2004, 07:54 AM   #9
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I took a look at two Inland L379 (6 o'clock) slides that I have. One has the 7160091 number and the other does not. The one with the number has the cam and box cuts, the other one does not. I would say that the number is to identify the cuts and not the style of slide. I believe that is what you are saying Wayne. This would make sense. The number would be to help arsenals identify the cuts easily. Just look for the number. It would be the same with the "M" on the late, thinner Magazine catches.
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Old 12-19-2004, 01:20 PM   #10
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Yes newscotlander, exactly. Sometimes I can't seem to say what I mean, you nailed it though. Riesch and others always assumed the number denoted a late type 5 slide with all the changes, I disagreed, since the number had to denote a change of one kind, not several or why bother with putting it on the bottom of the slide? War Baby! and my manuals show it as a part number for slides, so maybe that's where the confusion comes in. Your slide reinforces my research, thanks for posting it. Any comment on that type 4 PI with the beveled side?
 
Old 12-20-2004, 06:46 AM   #11
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I have seen both the rounded and the beveled cut on the bottom of slide boxes. I have one Winchester slide that is rounded and one that is beveled but have never seen a slide with one of each. I can offer no explanation for the difference.
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Old 12-20-2004, 10:53 AM   #12
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Oh well, thanks for the input though newscotlander. Another unanswered question, of which I have many. I guess everyone else is too chicken to speculate!
 
Old 12-20-2004, 11:25 AM   #13
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Wayne, Just out of curiousity, is that an M2 slide on the left? M2 slides look alot like that with different cuts on each side. More material is removed on the right side of the M2 slide than the earlier slides.
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Old 12-20-2004, 08:27 PM   #14
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Negative newscotlander, neither is. That's a type 4 PI with the straight top, but has the wider arm joint and longer cam cut. It's on the left side curiously, not the right (looking from the back). I'll take a side by side from the front pic later and post it, as it is more pronounced from that angle.
 
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