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Old 07-15-2014, 03:23 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Kevin Gibson View Post
Most of the "accuracy" issues are horribly exaggerated. The issue of accuracy is mostly related to the cartridge and shooting at distance. At distance the Garand "seems" far more accurate because the much flatter shooting cartridge is much easier to hit with. When in fact, the accuracy acceptance standards for the Carbine and Garand were exactly the same 6 MOA. In reality wartime Garands were typically 2.5 MOA and Carbines were typically 4 MOA. And while 4 MOA doesn't sound impressive, you have to understand the very limited range of the cartridge, and the intent of the M1 Carbine; a replacement for a handgun. A 4 MOA carbine is a very deadly weapon out to around 150 yards even in the hands of someone not really well trained. Out to 300 yards, you wouldn't want a well trained marksman shooting at you with one. I can connect on man sized target out to 300m with boring regularity. It's a quite competent little rifle. And when comparing ball ammo to ball ammo, the Carbine has better barrier penetration than the .223 inside of 150 yards. So for a defensive defense carbine, I just can't think of how it's deficient in ANY way. And if you use something like the Cor-Bon load, its FAR more terminally effective than ANY of the NATO FMJ rounds, even the .308; inside 150 yards.

I have said more times than I can count. The M1 carbine was SUCH a great replacement for a handgun that it has always been compared to main line infantry rifles; where predictably it would come up short.

The Carbine was a PDW before the concept of the PDW, so it just has never been measured against PDW's. Some "PDW's" were SMG's. H&K marketed a "PDW" version of the MP5-K. And when measured against SMG's the M1 Carbine would always come out smelling like a rose. Reliability is about a parity if you're comparing against the best of the SMG's (something like the Sterling), accuracy is typically better, terminal performance is superior as is barrier penetration).

I personally think the M1 Carbine still makes a great PDW, and would do well in service with any military. Sure there are better options out there. The Suchka (AKSU-74) commonly and incorrectly called the Krinkov is an excellent PDW, and coincidentally it has been accused of exactly the same things as the M1 Carbine. Lack of accuracy and "stopping power" at range. Some things never change.
My carbine has the early type L-shaped "flip" sight that the carbine wore during WW2. When I first took possession of it after my father died I noted the sight was as far left in the dovetail as possible without hanging over. I recalled my father saying that the carbine hit the target to the left of point of aim; looking at that sight I felt sure I knew why ... but didn't know why my father had never bothered to adjust it.
Taking it to the range confirmed it hit to the left of POA. A trip to a local gunsmith, who had the right tools and a range in the basement of his shop corrected the matter. The sight still "looks" like it is not properly centered in the dovetail, but a repeat trip to the range proved it hits on center.
And I was surprised by the accuracy of the gun. Oh, by the way the gunsmith had offered to buy my carbine saying he hadn't seen one in such good condition in regards the bolt & breech in a LONG time.
It was good to hear that and a nice offer .... but I inherited the carbine from my father and it isn't going anywhere.

Last edited by TommyGunn; 07-15-2014 at 03:26 PM.
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Old 07-15-2014, 03:32 PM   #22
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A carbine sight not centered in the dovetail indicates either a front sight cut made slightly off, or the barrel not quite perfectly screwed in. If it's the front sight cut on the barrel, moving the rear sight is all you really can do...no big deal, that's why the dovetail is so wide. If it's the barrel, you check that by turning the gun upside down, and placing a machinist parallel bar on the bottom of the receiver, and the flat of the barrel to ensure they both are aligned parallel. If not, adjust with action wrench.

Sounds like yours is dialed in, if all is working well; just run it.

BTW, here's a photo of my carbine.


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Old 07-15-2014, 05:29 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Kevin Gibson View Post
A carbine sight not centered in the dovetail indicates either a front sight cut made slightly off, or the barrel not quite perfectly screwed in.

That's my Inland always shoots about 6-8" to the right @100yds the barrel is about .005"-.010" from the index.The thing is though within a 50yds and out to 75yds I can make a can dance just using the front sight.The fact of no recoil really makes sight acquisition so quick making it my favorite to shoot with the M1a the second on the list.I would love to acquire a VZ58 one day only held one once and it to was light and very balanced.
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Old 07-15-2014, 06:00 PM   #24
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As said the Carbine was an excellent weapon.
I've owned several.
However, experts like The NRA's Bruce Canfield, and Larry Ruth author of "The War Baby" went into some detail about the failures of Carbine manufacturers in the early war days with production problems that made many early weapons unreliable for various reasons.

Most of these companies had never built a firearm and never made another after the war. There was a steep learning curve and many makers had problems with production but the military accepted many of these Carbines because they had no choice. There was a war on and they needed them, even if some weren't reliable.

Most got their act together, with only one maker failing entirely and having their contact canceled.
However, in the early days the Carbine did have problems, and it's possible Gavin and his men may have gotten Carbines that were just bad.
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Old 07-16-2014, 05:38 PM   #25
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Interesting thread! Javlin, you may have cleared up a mystery for me: My first carbine shot way left. I had to dial the replacement adjustable rear sight all the way over to get it zeroed. It was a Korean bringback, and judging from the badly beat-up stock, I figured the barrel was slightly bent.
----
Regarding long(ish) range accuracy, here's a well-done video of 300yd shooting. Note the 'trail' where the bullet disturbs the air in passing:
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Old 07-17-2014, 06:21 AM   #26
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Shep that video is superb.Surprised @300 yds it broke and knocked off a 13lb iron plate from it's weld
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Old 01-10-2015, 06:52 AM   #27
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My Father served in the Marine Corp. in the pacific theater on Saipan, Tinian, and Tarawa.
He was a communications Jar Head and was issued the .30 carbine. He killed many Japanese soldiers. He told me that most of his skirmishes were from 30 to 100 yds and that the .30 performed very well leaving devastating wounds. He really liked it. He and his group were attacked many times in forward fire control tents. He was shot twice and still carried bullet fragments in his shoulder to his death last year at the age of 89.

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Old 01-10-2015, 08:22 AM   #28
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dfariswheel; All,

As some here know, my Mother taught MAJ Audie Murphy in Freshman English & years ago she said that, "Warriors come on all sizes & Audie was short, skinny & scrawny when he was in high school. He dropped out of high school in 10th grade to take care of his mother & sister and HAD to become a great hunter, as otherwise they family wouldn't have eaten regularly." and "I remember him sometimes selling dressed rabbits & squirrels to our teachers & staff to get cash for his sisters to buy school clothes."
(He wasn't called "Little Texas" by his messmates in 3rd Infantry RGT for nothing!)

Note: MAJ Murphy was so small in stature that when he starred in Hollywood movies that the directors routinely stood him on a box, so that he wasn't shorter than the leading ladies. - Even Gale Storm & Barbra Rush were taller than he was! = According to TXARNG records, when he joined the 3/144th Infantry, TXARNG he was 5'3" & weighed 120 pounds.
(MAJ Murphy GAINED weight in Basic Training!)

I strongly suspect that he carried a carbine because the Garand was just too heavy for him AND in the hands of an expert hunter almost ANY weapon is suitable for combat.
(According to two NCO of his company & who were there, MAJ Murphy "took a German sniper out of a church tower" with his "lucky carbine" at over 300 yards. = 300 yards being well beyond the normal "killing range" of a pistol replacement.)

yours, sw

Last edited by stand watie; 01-10-2015 at 08:39 AM. Reason: add
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Old 01-10-2015, 09:00 AM   #29
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To All,

The only SM that I ever talked to about using the carbine in the Pacific Theater of WWII was my uncle, PO3 Wayne Thomas B ___________, acting COB of the USS CHAMPION (AM-314).

My uncle said that, "I sometimes had to go ashore when I was 'temporarily appointed as Acting COB' and 'got myself a carbine' because I was issued a revolver & I 'couldn't hit a !@#$%^! thing with it'." and "I liked the carbine as I could hit with it."
(My uncle evidently "saw some action ashore", as he received a Purple Heart for "wounds suffered on or about the islands of Saipan", as opposed to the PH that he received aboard during a kamikaze attack.)
Note: My uncle brought his carbine home to TX with him in 1946.

yours, sw
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Old 01-10-2015, 05:38 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by stand watie View Post
dfariswheel; All,

As some here know, my Mother taught MAJ Audie Murphy in Freshman English & years ago she said that, "Warriors come on all sizes & Audie was short, skinny & scrawny when he was in high school. He dropped out of high school in 10th grade to take care of his mother & sister and HAD to become a great hunter, as otherwise they family wouldn't have eaten regularly." and "I remember him sometimes selling dressed rabbits & squirrels to our teachers & staff to get cash for his sisters to buy school clothes."
(He wasn't called "Little Texas" by his messmates in 3rd Infantry RGT for nothing!)

Note: MAJ Murphy was so small in stature that when he starred in Hollywood movies that the directors routinely stood him on a box, so that he wasn't shorter than the leading ladies. - Even Gale Storm & Barbra Rush were taller than he was! = According to TXARNG records, when he joined the 3/144th Infantry, TXARNG he was 5'3" & weighed 120 pounds.
(MAJ Murphy GAINED weight in Basic Training!)

I strongly suspect that he carried a carbine because the Garand was just too heavy for him AND in the hands of an expert hunter almost ANY weapon is suitable for combat.
(According to two NCO of his company & who were there, MAJ Murphy "took a German sniper out of a church tower" with his "lucky carbine" at over 300 yards. = 300 yards being well beyond the normal "killing range" of a pistol replacement.)

yours, sw
In several Murphy biographies the account of Murphy's first kill was described.
Soon after landing in Italy and moving off the beach, Murphy encountered two Italian officers riding large white thoroughbred horses.
They turned and rode away at high speed.
Murphy knelt and shot both out of the saddle with his M1 Rifle.
His fellow platoon members were astounded at his speed and accuracy.
One said that his M1 looked almost as tall as he was.

They were also rather shocked at the casual manner which he treated killing two men.

Having re-read this thread, I'm really regretting selling my last M1 Carbine years ago.
If I couldn't use my Colt M4 with the red dot reflex sight, I'd have zero problem using an M1 Carbine as a home defense gun.
There are some firearms that just seem to be somehow "Right", and the Carbine has the Right Stuff.
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Old 01-13-2015, 05:25 AM   #31
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I have an ancient group photo of my grandfather taken at Ft. McClellan in Anniston Alabama during the 1950's with nothing but M1 Carbines in eager veteran's hands, he was commander of a signal company. He carried the Thompson during WW2 and the Carbine during Korea. I also have photos of an uncle during Vietnam with an M1 Carbine when he was in the Air Force, don't know what unit, location or year.
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