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Old 06-16-2006, 07:56 PM   #1
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Carbine...still the best PDW

Often I see the carbine getting about as much respect as Rodney Dangerfield. I have always stood by the assertion that the carbine gets "dissed" because it's compared to full sized rifles rather than PDW's.

In WWII, it was pretty much in a class all its own. It was created as a replacement for a sidearm and in that role, I've still yet to see a better replacement and I've played with them all.

I've shot the FN P90 and while it was one heck of a fun SMG to play with, I cant vouch for its reliability and I'm really not convinced of its cartridge.

I've played with the H&K MP5K-PDW and while fun to play with (the PDW's stock is way better than the retractable A3 stock), I would take a carbine over the MP5 any day.

The carbine is extremely reliable, accurate and packs a better punch than other PDW's.

It is so good that for comparason sake it has been moved into the rifle classification, where it predictably falls short.

If it all hit the fan tomorrow, I would reach for my carbine without hesitation, and will continue to do so until someone comes up with a better PDW design.
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Old 06-16-2006, 09:19 PM   #2
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Here here! Well said!
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Old 06-17-2006, 04:18 AM   #3
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Amen
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Old 06-17-2006, 06:20 AM   #4
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PDW

m1 carbines

modifications - no specialized skill.
replace handguard with forward scope mount- requires dremeling stock to accept mount. Hey, I can do it - so you can do it without having had wood shop in Jr. High School!
and Leupold 2.5x scope
skeletonize and paint stock battleship gray.

ammo change - 110 hollowpoint or softpoint

Now, we review.

Optics - a forward mounted scope allows usage on running shots and by eye glass or helmet wearers.

Optics - Leupold makes excellent glass. You can see into shadows at high noon with a scout scope. You get an excellent field of view. In low light or near pitch darkness, you have light gathering capability not possible with the naked eye.

Optics - 2.5x means that a 250 yard target appears to be about 100 yards away.

Optics - non battery powered scope vs. battery operated optics.

Skeletonized stock - reduces weight. Allows the use of 550 cord to lie rifle flat on a pack. allows you to have a sling that is not dedicated.

Battleship gray - concealment at night.

Weight - less than a standard ar15 without optics

Range - 250 yards. Ammo, as modified, is more effective over a range of 250 yards than the .223

Reliability - once checked, it will run for a very long time.

A firearm is a tool. This tool works for me. If you gave me other weapon systems, I could modify them, describe the optics that work and so forth. However, this is a reliable tool for me. If you wanted a more versatile tool, it would be the Ruger 10/22 .22 win mag with the modifications described except that the forward scope mount would be on the factory barrel - and the range would be cut to 125 yards.

At some point in the next ten years, the primary trunk gun will switch from the T26 Garand in .308 with forward optics to the m1 carbine as described. It is the reality that I am getting older. I will give up distance for weight.
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Old 06-17-2006, 10:30 AM   #5
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A stone stock USGI Inland carbine that I built up from parts and have checked for function and reliability has been my primary home defense gun for about 20 years now. I don't know what further endorsement I could give it.
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Old 06-17-2006, 11:06 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snake45
A stone stock USGI Inland carbine...

What is a "stone stock???"
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Old 06-17-2006, 11:15 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyGunn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snake45
A stone stock USGI Inland carbine...

What is "stone stock???"
It means all USGI parts, no aftermarket goodies, optics, fog lights, mud flaps, cup holders, or any other kind of rinky-dink junky gun candy on it.
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Old 06-17-2006, 11:41 AM   #8
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I really like Carbines----the original 'fun' gun----but, IMHO, when it comes to a PDW, it's kind of hard to beat a 12 GA pump shotgun.
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Old 06-17-2006, 01:43 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChairborneRanger
when it comes to a PDW, it's kind of hard to beat a 12 GA pump shotgun.
It's not if you have small children in the house.

I have gauges, but I determined that there was no way to keep one around that was both SAFE and FAST into action.

I played with everything, and carbine worked best for me. I can go from it being perfectly safe (empty and unfireable) to ready to rock and roll in under six seconds--with no keys to find, no combinations to remember. It's worked for me.
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Old 06-17-2006, 03:00 PM   #10
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my choice for the ultimate PDW is the AKS-74U, small and very compact, reliable, fires a rifle cartridge, muzzle velocity 800 m/s

[img]http://www.hunt101.com/img/414893.jpg[/img]
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Old 06-17-2006, 03:29 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChairborneRanger
I really like Carbines----the original 'fun' gun----but, IMHO, when it comes to a PDW, it's kind of hard to beat a 12 GA pump shotgun.
I'm with you on that one. I keep a Benelli Nova with an 18.5" barrel, 8 round mag & ghost ring sights around just for that purpose.

I still think the M2 Carbine is an excellent SMG, even today though.
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Old 06-18-2006, 03:30 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snake45
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChairborneRanger
when it comes to a PDW, it's kind of hard to beat a 12 GA pump shotgun.
It's not if you have small children in the house.

I have gauges, but I determined that there was no way to keep one around that was both SAFE and FAST into action.

I played with everything, and carbine worked best for me. I can go from it being perfectly safe (empty and unfireable) to ready to rock and roll in under six seconds--with no keys to find, no combinations to remember. It's worked for me.
I absolutely agree----the important thing is to do what "works" for you. That said, one of the problems----especially with someone else (including kids) in a house, is that a Carbine is likely going to shoot right through a wall----not so with #4 shot. To each 'his own', though!
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Old 06-18-2006, 06:41 AM   #13
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On shotguns, overpenetration, etc. By a friend of a friend:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

In comparsion to the 30 carbine, and with birdshot:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm

Me? I still go for normal penetration. I just understand where my sole family member will be, and use that information accordingly.
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Old 06-18-2006, 10:30 AM   #14
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Mas Ayoob has shown us that anything worth shooting anyone with is pretty much going to shoot through every interior wall in your house anyway. The idea is to use that knowledge to your benefit, like Angelna Jolie did in Mr and Mrs Smith.
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Old 06-18-2006, 12:28 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quagmire
I still think the M2 Carbine is an excellent SMG, even today though.
I wouldn't call the M-2 a submachine gun.. SMGs use pistol ammo. I know that the .30 Carbine is not exactly Winchester Magnum contender material, but it is a rifle round. Okay, I have seen handguns chambered for it, but I've seen handguns chambered for .30-30 too and somehow that just seems wrong in a handgun! (or too powereful.... )
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Old 06-18-2006, 03:28 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyGunn
I wouldn't call the M-2 a submachine gun.. SMGs use pistol ammo. I know that the .30 Carbine is not exactly Winchester Magnum contender material, but it is a rifle round. Okay, I have seen handguns chambered for it, but I've seen handguns chambered for .30-30 too and somehow that just seems wrong in a handgun! (or too powereful.... )
Tommy,

You've touched an ages long debate... Was the M2 Carbine the first Assault Rifle? The debate rests on whether the .30 Carbine is a pistol cartridge or a rifle cartridge. The vast majority of historians believe it to be a magnum pistol cartridge, not a rifle cartridge. It's a fine line, but the .30 Carbine pretty much lost the arguement.
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Old 06-18-2006, 06:51 PM   #17
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'Was the M2 Carbine the first Assault Rifle?'

No, since it was developed some time after the German MP-43, the real first assault rifle and the source of the AK-47, both weapons firing a similar short rifle cartridge.

'I wouldn't call the M-2 a submachine gun.. SMGs use pistol ammo.'

The M1 Carbine cartridge was a version of a .32 pistol cartridge - more powerful, to be sure, and that's one thing that makes the M2 such a great sub-gun. I have come to believe the M2 Carbine is maybe the best combination of long-barreled submachine gun and carbine ever devised.
I've seen recent pictures from Israel of security forces using M2 Carbines in a bull-pup configuration - why not? As with any sub-gun, the cartridge case size allows high capacity in a smaller magazine than an assault rifle, the .30 M1 cartridge has more power than any other pistol-caliber sub-gun and the long barrel adds rifle accuracy on aimed shots.
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Old 06-18-2006, 07:01 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GunGeek
You've touched an ages long debate... Was the M2 Carbine the first Assault Rifle? The debate rests on whether the .30 Carbine is a pistol cartridge or a rifle cartridge. The vast majority of historians believe it to be a magnum pistol cartridge, not a rifle cartridge. It's a fine line, but the .30 Carbine pretty much lost the arguement.
Well...as in so many other aspects of existance in this universe...I'm a dissenter. Oh well. Having my back against the wall atleast negates the opportunity to stab me in the back...
Actually The M-2 might be a better assault rifle than a SMG.
I realize that it was developed from a .32 WSL round, and yeah, it's easily outclassed by it's "big brother" M-1 Garand's .30-'06, and many many other large centerfire rounds, but, still...pistol round it's not. (IMHO)

Now, in discussing the role of the .22 CB as an anti-aircraft shell.....




P.S. I believe the "MP-43" was actually the Stg-43. "MP" is Maschinen pistole" and was used to designate German SMGs while the German term for assault rifle was "Sturmgewehr," or StG for short.
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Old 06-19-2006, 03:23 AM   #19
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IMHO, while a carbine OR a rifle OR a shotgun are much better than any handgun for defensive purposes, I'm going to stick with the idea that the best PDW is one that be kept discreetly within arm's reach 24/7 witout interfering with one's ability to go through their normal daily routine. This, of course, means a handgun.

A .38 on the hip beats the long gun in the safe/closet any day. The whole concept of a PDW is based on the necessity that the weapon is at hand when you need it.
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Old 06-19-2006, 04:08 AM   #20
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Inland,

The bullpup carbine you're talking about is the HEZI SM1 from Advanced Combat Systems. This was a clever idea. The people using the HEZI are Palestinian police forces. The idea was to arm them well and arm them cheap. The problem was, when they gave them more common weapons, those weapons would somehow find their way into the hands of Palestinian militants.

If a militant is seen with a HEZI, it's quite apparent where it came from. The Israeli's have kept good records on the HEZI and when they come up missing, there is hell to pay.

The HEZI is a very high quality retrofit, but IMO it does take a little bit away from the original design. I've met the people from ACS a few times and I haven't heard of M2 HEZI's (doesn't mean they don't exist, just that I haven't heard of one).

Richard,

You of course are right about the PDW. My reference is to the PDW in the military role and as described by NATO. With that being the criteria, I'd rather be armed with the M1 Carbine than any other PDW I've seen. (and I'd still like to have a pistol)
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