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Old 02-04-2017, 03:19 PM   #21
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Apparently, on Kevin's and Geoff's lists.
Everyone knows the most interesting 1911's are stamped Colt's Super 38 Automatic!!
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Old 02-04-2017, 03:38 PM   #22
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See your .38 Super and raise the Lebman machine-pistol conversion...

Fugly as sin and a horrid kludge of 1911 and TSMG parts, and I personally consider the mechanism (simple conversion, disable disconnector) unsafe... but for the niche it played in the Roaring 20's and on the tecnical level, it merits mention as part of the 1911 Family Tree.
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Old 02-04-2017, 11:36 PM   #23
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See your .38 Super and raise the Lebman machine-pistol conversion...

Fugly as sin and a horrid kludge of 1911 and TSMG parts, and I personally consider the mechanism (simple conversion, disable disconnector) unsafe... but for the niche it played in the Roaring 20's and on the tecnical level, it merits mention as part of the 1911 Family Tree.
The Lebman (some say it was Lehman) was cool, and a neat piece of history, but in the grand scheme of things it was a POS and a LONG ways away from being "the ultimate". It was, as you mentioned, a bit dangerous; but like most other machine pistols, rather un-controllable which makes them nearly useless in a gun fight. I believe there was one "successful" use of the lebman was when Baby Face Nelson use his to kill FBI agent W. Carter Baum at the Little Bohemia shootout. But apparently it was at a range of just a couple feet.
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Old 02-04-2017, 11:57 PM   #24
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True, the nasty little thing would be more "collector piece" than any actual use. My first move if one entered my house would be to remove the mainspring, just to make sure... either that or plop in a standard 1911 sear/disconnector group, and place the originals in a Baggie stored with the hunk of junk in its display case.
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Old 02-05-2017, 07:08 AM   #25
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The Lebman (some say it was Lehman) was cool, and a neat piece of history, but in the grand scheme of things it was a POS and a LONG ways away from being "the ultimate".
It was Lebman. Hyman (Jaime) Lebman to be specific. He was a saddle maker of note and his saddles of collectables today. He was also a gunsmith with a checkered past. His saddle shop and gun shop were on South Flores across from the Kallison's Farm and Ranch Store which is long gone. There store had a basement and there were street car tracks out front. Jaime would build is machine pistols, take them to the basement and when a trolley would pass he would test fire the guns. None of this was legal and he spent several stints in prison for his efforts.

I knew him and his two sons, Marvin and Gerry. He didn't care if his boys were crooks or not but didn't want them to follow is example and do prison time so he sent them to Saint Mary's law school and they became lawyers.

Last edited by csmkersh; 02-05-2017 at 07:11 AM.
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Old 02-05-2017, 07:36 AM   #26
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I knew him and his two sons, Marvin and Gerry. He didn't care if his boys were crooks or not but didn't want them to follow is example and do prison time so he sent them to Saint Mary's law school and they became lawyers.
That's a pretty cool piece of history.
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Old 02-06-2017, 03:26 AM   #27
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Everyone knows the most interesting 1911's are stamped Colt's Super 38 Automatic!!
Caliber follows function, so based on the category selected each ULTIMATE 1911 would probably be a different caliber. csmkersh's answer for the ULTIMATE 1911 "is the one in your holster" makes allot of sense. Especially when you take into consideration how many specific configurations are utilized to maximize what type of shooting is to be done. It could also depend upon the skill set or how much training or practice time is available. So I'd lean toward the 22LR as being the most interesting of 1911's, since it is the tamest and therefore easiest to master. (LOL)
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Old 02-06-2017, 11:04 AM   #28
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It was Lebman. Hyman (Jaime) Lebman to be specific. He was a saddle maker of note and his saddles of collectables today. He was also a gunsmith with a checkered past. His saddle shop and gun shop were on South Flores across from the Kallison's Farm and Ranch Store which is long gone. There store had a basement and there were street car tracks out front. Jaime would build is machine pistols, take them to the basement and when a trolley would pass he would test fire the guns. None of this was legal and he spent several stints in prison for his efforts.

I knew him and his two sons, Marvin and Gerry. He didn't care if his boys were crooks or not but didn't want them to follow is example and do prison time so he sent them to Saint Mary's law school and they became lawyers.
Fantastic! He did keep some salty company, that's for sure.
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Old 02-06-2017, 11:17 AM   #29
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Caliber follows function, so based on the category selected each ULTIMATE 1911 would probably be a different caliber. csmkersh's answer for the ULTIMATE 1911 "is the one in your holster" makes allot of sense. Especially when you take into consideration how many specific configurations are utilized to maximize what type of shooting is to be done. It could also depend upon the skill set or how much training or practice time is available. So I'd lean toward the 22LR as being the most interesting of 1911's, since it is the tamest and therefore easiest to master. (LOL)
It's an amazing piece of kit, that's for sure. Like a claw hammer, for 99% of end users it's every bit as useful as it was when the first dozen rolled off the assembly line.

I'm always amazed at exactly how good it really is. Sure there are better tools for the most elite soldiers of today. But for a guy who enjoys shooting and wants to defend himself and his loved ones, it's every bit as good as the latest & greatest.

In 2011 I bought a 100 anniversary Government Model in .38 Super. I go weak in the knees for pre-war .38 Supers, but given my bank account it's apparent I'll never own one. So I thought I'd emulate one as best I could. I replaced the synthetic flat MSH with a steel arched MSH with a lanyard loop, and I replaced the long aluminum trigger with a short steel one to make it more true to A1 form. The small parts where then Nitre blued and a set of elephant ivory Colt medallion grips added. I replaced the rear sight with one I made in the shop, and cleaned up the trigger. So most changes were cosmetic, no accurizing was done. It is consistently my most enjoyable centerfire handgun, and it really makes me look good. At 150 yards it hits with remarkable consistency targets it (or me) have no right to hit at that distance.

But when things are sped up and distances become shorter, targets get larger, and become multiple; well, she really goes to work. By today's standards she's very much a plus sized gal at 49.9oz fully loaded with 9 rounds of 125gr Silvertips. That extra weight means she swings with much more effort, but swing she does. When it comes to tripping the trigger fast, that plus size kicks in and recoil of full power loads is tamed to more of a kitten than a roaring lion.

I wold post a photo, but seems photobucket is down at the moment...at least I can't hit it.
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Old 02-08-2017, 03:58 PM   #30
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GunGeek, my hardest selection is which of the two 3 Pistol 1911 bags to drag to the range. Do I take the Target sighted 22LR Kimber with the Target sighted 9 mm Taurus and the target sighted AMT .45 ACP ? Or do I take the Tritium Service sighted .45 ACP Taurus, Kimber, and S&W with the extra 22LR Kimber conversion? .38 Super is a fantastic caliber for certain competitions, but for general target practice 22 LR is the lowest cost least maintenance, (just police the area with a broom) and 9 mm NATO is available in both brass and non-retrievable non-reload-able casings. As a 1911 ADDICT, perhaps I could dwindle my current 1911's to a minimum of task specific ULTIMATE'S? It seems as if every time I sell off on of my 1911's two other 1911's take it's place.

I'm glad Elmer and S&W made the 44. Mag Model 29, otherwise I'd probably have some Auto-mags, Grizzlies, etc, in how many other 3 gun range bags?
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Old 02-08-2017, 07:00 PM   #31
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I'm glad Elmer and S&W made the 44. Mag Model 29
So am I. I got tired of him ruining perfectly good Colt SAAs.
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Old 02-09-2017, 06:53 AM   #32
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So am I. I got tired of him ruining perfectly good Colt SAAs.
Perished in the line of duty.

Geoff
Who owns a Ruger Superblackhawk 7.5" but I need to take it to the range.
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Old 02-09-2017, 07:50 AM   #33
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He didn't care if his boys were crooks or not but didn't want them to follow is example and do prison time so he sent them to Saint Mary's law school and they became lawyers.
Now that right there is funny. I don't care who you are.

It really is a great piece of history. I have seen so many photo's of that full-auto conversion, but now that information really puts it in a whole new light for me.
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Old 02-10-2017, 03:18 PM   #34
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So am I. I got tired of him ruining perfectly good Colt SAAs.
Didn't some "GUY" in a tank like them SAAs? I think I remember some folks armed with .38's that preferred them Old SAAs?

My memory slips, why did the .45 ACP 1911 become a G.I. issue sidearm? It's great to be getting old, every day is a new day. I think I remember that the Colt SAA was G.I. at one time? But wasn't that back when the Single Action Rolling Block Rifle/Carbine that used different loading's of the same cartridge for Infantry & Cavalry existed? I just can't recall why the .45 came back into favor over the much more controllable/affordable .38?
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Old 02-10-2017, 03:23 PM   #35
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Didn't some "GUY" in a tank like them SAAs? I think I remember some folks armed with .38's that preferred them Old SAAs?

My memory slips, why did the .45 ACP 1911 become a G.I. issue sidearm? It's great to be getting old, every day is a new day. I think I remember that the Colt SAA was G.I. at one time? But wasn't that back when the Single Action Rolling Block Rifle/Carbine that used different loading's of the same cartridge for Infantry & Cavalry existed? I just can't recall why the .45 came back into favor over the much more controllable/affordable .38?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomps...3LaGarde_Tests
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Old 02-10-2017, 03:37 PM   #36
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SpecialEd, I think you only did 1/4 of the research required to answer the question?
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Old 02-10-2017, 03:39 PM   #37
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SpecialEd, I think you only did 1/4 of the research required to answer the question?
I didn't research anything. I gave you a stepping stone to get you started on the right track.
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Old 02-10-2017, 04:02 PM   #38
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I've reached the end of the road SpecialEd. Thank You for your insight, but when I question it is rhetorical, when I am silent I am asking for your experience, when I rebuke it is because you have posted theoretical BS that shall cost others thier lives. But I Thank You once again for setting me upon the proper stepping stone that shall guide my path.
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Old 02-10-2017, 06:40 PM   #39
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Didn't some "GUY" in a tank like them SAAs? I think I remember some folks armed with .38's that preferred them Old SAAs?

My memory slips, why did the .45 ACP 1911 become a G.I. issue sidearm? It's great to be getting old, every day is a new day. I think I remember that the Colt SAA was G.I. at one time? But wasn't that back when the Single Action Rolling Block Rifle/Carbine that used different loading's of the same cartridge for Infantry & Cavalry existed? I just can't recall why the .45 came back into favor over the much more controllable/affordable .38?
That guy in the tank was was Gen Patton who started his Cavalry here in Texas chasing Poncho Villa. Patton became known latter in for carrying a brace of pistols, a Colt SAA in.45 Colt and a S&W in .357 Magnum. For desk duty he'd stick a Colt 1903 in his waist band. It was that same period and incident the 1911 was used the first time and may have also been the Cavalry's last horse charge. Texas was a fun place around the turn of the century.

At the time the Colt SAA was still the Army's gun. They had a bad experience with .38s in the Philippines fighting Moro Muslim Juramentados. The Army's .38 wasn't the .38 Special but a far less powerful .38 Colt. The Army, as a result of their loses against the Moros re-activated the older SAAs and pushed Browning on his development of the 1911. Smith & Wesson was also selling their top-break American in .45 Government aka Short Colt. While the milder .38s might be more controllable, they didn't get the attention of the hopped up Moros like a 225-250 grain .45 slug.

Last edited by csmkersh; 02-11-2017 at 05:46 AM. Reason: fix a spell-check's error
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Old 02-10-2017, 07:20 PM   #40
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That guy in the tank was was Gen Patton who started his Calvary here in Texas chasing Poncho Villa. Patton became known latter in for carrying a brace of pistols, a Colt SAA in.45 Colt and a S&W in .357 Magnum. For desk duty he'd stick a Colt 1903 in his waist band. It was that same period and incident the 1911 was used the first time and may have also been the Calvary's last horse charge......

"Calvary" is where Jesus died. Patton was in the U.S. Army cavalry.
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