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Old 10-22-2016, 03:50 PM   #21
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At This Point...

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Originally Posted by csmkersh View Post
I only buy old, pre-lock S&W revolvers. Wonder if I should revive my "S&W must die" signature.
...in my life, I go to gun shows to set up the recruitment tables for the Arizona Citizens Defense League. However, if I get a few minutes to walk around, the main thing that I get out of it is an appreciation of how high in value my older S&W revolvers have gone.
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Old 10-22-2016, 04:03 PM   #22
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About "ovaling of the firing pin hole". If you look at the breech face of an M&P, you'll note a tear drop shape below the firing pin hole. This prevents cratered primers from extruding into the firing pin hole and tying the gun up. I've put several thousand rounds through my 9 and have had no problems.

Now an accumulation of crud inside the striker tunnel could cause misfires. There is a drain hole just behind the breech that should allow the striker to self clean. Unfortunately, the striker sleeve seems to wiggle about and occasionally block the hole.
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Old 10-23-2016, 02:48 AM   #23
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That May Be...

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Originally Posted by William R. Moore View Post
About "ovaling of the firing pin hole". If you look at the breech face of an M&P, you'll note a tear drop shape below the firing pin hole. This prevents cratered primers from extruding into the firing pin hole and tying the gun up. I've put several thousand rounds through my 9 and have had no problems.

Now an accumulation of crud inside the striker tunnel could cause misfires. There is a drain hole just behind the breech that should allow the striker to self clean. Unfortunately, the striker sleeve seems to wiggle about and occasionally block the hole.
...but I was referring to the hole in the polymer frame that supports the pin on which the trigger pivots.
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Old 10-23-2016, 06:17 AM   #24
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S&W service has a good reputation. Some folks have had problems, but they may have made themselves undesireable. (One should not scream at the level one tech support representative, please.)

Most interaction have been positive, I suspect I should have sent my Walther P22 in when the box was offered...missed oportunities, but the new front sight has not vanished.

Guns made with a high level of QC are not inexpensive, cross reference the Beretta M-9 and SIG M-11 and variants.

Geoff
Who still thinks the Glock is overpriced, but I do note the entire line has good out of the box reliability...after allowing for first year glitches (cross reference the NYPD experience)
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Old 10-23-2016, 06:28 AM   #25
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I Don't Know the Details...

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S&W service has a good reputation. Some folks have had problems, but they may have made themselves undesireable. (One should not scream at the level one tech support representative, please.)
...but a good friend, who happens to be S&W certified DAO revolver armorer, recently told me that he sent a "recently made" 640 Centennial back for replacement of a broken "hammer pin" (I've experienced that once myself on a 640-1 and seen it on a student's 642) and was billed for the repair, despite S&W's "lifetime service policy."

On another note, I just tried (unsuccessfully) to verify the name of the armorer course in question and noticed that S&W seems finally to have redone their website, overcoming the very lengthy download times that plagued it in the past. Ironic, isn't it?

Last edited by spwenger; 10-23-2016 at 06:29 AM. Reason: Corrected misplaced letter.
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Old 10-23-2016, 06:53 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spwenger View Post
...but a good friend, who happens to be S&W certified DAO revolver armorer, recently told me that he sent a "recently made" 640 Centennial back for replacement of a broken "hammer pin" (I've experienced that once myself on a 640-1 and seen it on a student's 642) and was billed for the repair, despite S&W's "lifetime service policy."
And I replaced the rebound slide on a 640 of one of your Texas students. Also a factory defect. I don't remember if S&W provided it gratis or if you had to pay when you ordered the part. So far my 640-2 hasn't been a problem.
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Old 10-23-2016, 08:42 AM   #27
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As the Saying Goes...

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And I replaced the rebound slide on a 640 of one of your Texas students. Also a factory defect. I don't remember if S&W provided it gratis or if you had to pay when you ordered the part. So far my 640-2 hasn't been a problem.
...that was then, this is now. Going back a few years:
  • I went to re-spring a new 3" Model 60 that one of my female friends had purchased on my recommendation and found that the MIM rebound slide lacked the pin for the hammer block. S&W mailed me a replacement at no charge.
  • When we discovered the broken hammer (pivot) pin on my student's 642, S&W advised him that they do not do the repair on the aluminum-frame guns and sent him a new one, in exchange for the returned one. I don't recall if the new one had the same serial number and/or whether or not it had to go through an FFL.
  • When I discovered the broken hammer pin on my own 640-1, S&W sent me the shipping label and did the repair at no charge. Further, they honored my request not to replace the parts that had been "tuned."
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Old 10-23-2016, 12:00 PM   #28
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I ain't ready to just quit on S&W completely. I will admit to being far more partial to older Smith revolvers than their newer offerings (although I own a couple of their snubbies made in this century which have been very good guns). The only S&W auto's I have are the two Shield's, and like I said, the 9mm has been very reliable little pistol.

S&W sold a million (1,000,000!!) of these pistols in 9mm/.40 S&W in about 5 years, around December of 2015. A million! I understand that the .45 acp models hit the shelves on schedule, which is rare in just about any manufacturing business it seems. Did they (are they) pushing their employees too hard? That is certainly possible. Have they lowered standards to meet unreasonable manufacturing quotas? Couldn't say. Are the two Shield incidents listed here just isolated incidents - anomalies of the manufacturing process that are statistically acceptable? Maybe. Beyond my skill set to determine.

One recall in 2013 for a drop safe issue. Some possible issues with M&P .40 S&W's issued to the LASD many years ago, but the reports I read were vague, could well have been ammo related, and the "negligent discharge" issues were total BS for a department that also allowed the carry of Glocks (along with Beretta 92FS's).

I remember when everyone was screaming about the Kimber external extractor.I had a full sized Kimber with an external extractor that ran like a champ...never gave me a single problem. I always thought that maybe it was the little mini-1911's that were more prone to this, but that was pure speculation on my part.

I heard all the horror stories about M-16's. Never carried one in combat, and have no doubt that with the ammo they issued and no cleaning kits available, they did freeze up. But I got to shoot the hell out of some for a few years when the USAF SP's still had rifle/pistol teams in the mid to late 70's. Hot, dusty, humid conditions. Hours of time on the range, LOTS of ammo. We didn't keep them white glove clean either. But they ran well.

Whole lot of words to say that range time will tell. I am going to shoot the heck out of this little big bore. I will keep you posted.

Last edited by IrishCop; 10-23-2016 at 02:20 PM.
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Old 10-23-2016, 01:54 PM   #29
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I'm not kicking S&W to the curb. I have several that have given me excellent service and on the couple of occasions I've required factory assistance it's been prompt.

The new corporate model is what it is and it ain't going back...
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Old 10-23-2016, 02:08 PM   #30
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I've carried a Chief Special j-frame since 1955 when I was down on the Mexican border. I have a pair of Model 36s and a 442 today. I've blundered and let my K and N frames get away except for one Model 13 HB I've had some custom work done to.

Last edited by csmkersh; 10-23-2016 at 02:10 PM.
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Old 10-23-2016, 04:09 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by spwenger View Post
...but I was referring to the hole in the polymer frame that supports the pin on which the trigger pivots.
OOPS! My bad. That said, the trigger pivot pin passes through and pivots on, the steel locking block and that part is separately replaceable. We got our 1st gen M&P40s in early 2006 and I estimate by my retirement in late 2015 I'd put about 10-12,000 rounds through it without seeing that wear. I don't have quite that many through my M&P9, bought the same year, but see no wear there either.

I have to wonder exactly what they're doing.

Last edited by William R. Moore; 10-23-2016 at 04:13 PM.
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Old 10-23-2016, 04:54 PM   #32
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The LASD Guns...

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Some possible issues with M&P .40 S&W's issued to the LASD many years ago, but the reports I read were vague, could well have been ammo related, and the "negligent discharge" issues were total BS for a department that also allowed the carry of Glocks (along with Beretta 92FS's).
...to my knowledge, have all been 9mm. Glocks? Are you sure that you don't meant LAPD?
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Old 10-23-2016, 05:23 PM   #33
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I need to amend my post about the trigger pivot pin (sunset syndrome?). The trigger pin itself doesn't pivot. Or at least it shouldn't. The trigger pivots on the stationary pin. Now, if someone managed somehow to oval out the pivot pin hole in the plastic trigger......ok, maybe a failure of the pivot pin in the trigger itself that keeps the trigger safety from working as it should.

Over the years I saw some really interesting (if not impossible, at least extremely unlikely) reports of breakage, malfunctions or ND causes.
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Old 10-23-2016, 05:40 PM   #34
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...to my knowledge, have all been 9mm. Glocks? Are you sure that you don't meant LAPD?
It was the 9mm. Back in 2009, LASD removed the M&P drones their approved carry list because if supposed extraction failures (2 among 49 weapons in service). I understand the LASD issued Berettas and approved Glocks for private purchase.

Sorry about the mix up. That's what I get for trying to binge watch The Walking Dead and post on my flip pin' phone!
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Old 11-10-2016, 08:18 AM   #35
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Latest, S&W isn't even S&W anymore, junking the name in favor of "American Outdoor Group."

This after they acquired Battenfeld Technologies (Caldwell range supplies, Wheeler tools, Frankford reloading gear)...
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Old 11-10-2016, 08:28 AM   #36
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Not Entirely True

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Latest, S&W isn't even S&W anymore, junking the name in favor of "American Outdoor Group."

This after they acquired Battenfeld Technologies (Caldwell range supplies, Wheeler tools, Frankford reloading gear)...
It's the parent corporation - Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation [SWHC] - that is seeking approval for the name change. The firearms will still be marketed under the S&W brand name.

Weren't they still S&W guns when the company was owned by Bangor Punta, Lear Siegler and Tomkins PLC? SWHC was formed after Tomkins sold off the brand to Saf-T-Hammer.
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Old 11-10-2016, 02:10 PM   #37
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At one time not too far back S&W was held by a British group. Read their stocks tanked with the election of Trump as he won't try to ban guns as Hillary wanted to do.
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Old 11-10-2016, 02:58 PM   #38
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Quote:
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At one time not too far back S&W was held by a British group. Read their stocks tanked with the election of Trump as he won't try to ban guns as Hillary wanted to do.
And it isn't just S&W. Firearms stocks in general showed losses. The market folks think it's because Trump's election will mean there won't be the panic rush to buy guns and ammo there would have been had Hillary been the winner.

And they're probably right. The perceived threat is gone, for now anyway.
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Old 11-10-2016, 03:17 PM   #39
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Quote:
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And it isn't just S&W. Firearms stocks in general showed losses. The market folks think it's because Trump's election will mean there won't be the panic rush to buy guns and ammo there would have been had Hillary been the winner.

And they're probably right. The perceived threat is gone, for now anyway.
What he said.
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Old 11-10-2016, 04:36 PM   #40
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Meanwhile a different threat comes from behind... calling Lifelong Until Last Year New York Liberal Dem Trump a "Republican" is like putting a prosthetic appendage and a Brooks Brothers suit on a woman and calling her a "man."

I'll give him a chance to prove he's changed, but I won't bet anything I actually give half a crap about on it--he's already welshing on reinvestigating Killary for one... though I like his rumored choice for EPA.

Matthew 7:16 (a favorite scripture among Behavioral Analysis types)

Last edited by Diamondback; 11-10-2016 at 04:39 PM. Reason: typo
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