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Old 02-14-2015, 08:19 AM   #21
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Amen...

The first ammo wasn't great either. It was a Winchester 180 gr. JHP loaded with a powder that was so heavily flash suppressed that it left yellow goo everywhere. Fortunately that was quickly fixed

It was also a bit ironic that Glock had a pistol about six months before S&W but sometimes being first is not a good thing
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Old 02-14-2015, 08:54 AM   #22
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Skeptic49,

FULLY AGREED on the P6. = That's what I generally carry AND I believe that we should be arming every service-member in the grade of E-7 & above, as well as all the police/security trained SM.
A compact/controlable handgun is necessary for "general concealed carry".

As some of the EOF here know, I was once, long, long ago, the PM of two smaller Army posts. = As a result of a relatively high crime rate, I got the post CDR to allow me to arm our senior NCO, WO & officers & swear them in as game wardens. - We had ZERO problems with experienced SM carrying & the crime rate on post fell about 1/3.

yours, sw
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Old 02-14-2015, 09:05 AM   #23
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My H&K USP 40C is a sweetheart of a handgun. It was specifically chosen to accommodate a wide variety of hand sizes, including females'. It's got a 12+1 capacity, reasonable recoil with aggressive loads, is a breeze to take down and clean, and is fairly light weight. In shooting thousands of rounds it's never hiccuped with factory ammo, and only once with reloads. If I had one minor bitch it would be the non-standard rail, but they fixed that in the P2000.

I agree with most of you that it probably won't be adopted because it's last name is "cal" and not "mm". But I like it. A lot.
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Old 02-14-2015, 10:41 AM   #24
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My H&K USP 40C is a sweetheart of a handgun. It was specifically chosen to accommodate a wide variety of hand sizes, including females'. It's got a 12+1 capacity, reasonable recoil with aggressive loads, is a breeze to take down and clean, and is fairly light weight. In shooting thousands of rounds it's never hiccuped with factory ammo, and only once with reloads. If I had one minor bitch it would be the non-standard rail, but they fixed that in the P2000.

I agree with most of you that it probably won't be adopted because it's last name is "cal" and not "mm". But I like it. A lot.
Call it "10mm Kurz?"
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Old 02-16-2015, 02:36 PM   #25
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About the .40 being based on the 9mm..................the concept was to design a cartridge that could fit in a 9mm frame because that fits more folks hands. [Also why you're not going to see the 38 Super or something similar as a service pistol. The reach to trigger has to be too long.]

The initial problem with that was that entirely too many simply used their current 9mm and slapped a .40 slide assembly on top. The results were very poor accuracy and short life. To this day, certain brands still have a lot of broken guns. Those that designed something .40 to start with did better (M&P40).

I know several CFI who decided to go with the .40 flow and came to bitterly regret it. Lower scores, broken guns and wrist injuries caused the regrets. One is currently transitioning their folks back to 9mm (not Illinois SP, who also did so).
William,

Since most .40's are in 9mm sized guns, I have found that most .40's actually recoil sharper than a .45 ACP. Just my observation.
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Old 02-16-2015, 02:39 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Charlie Petty View Post
Amen...

The first ammo wasn't great either. It was a Winchester 180 gr. JHP loaded with a powder that was so heavily flash suppressed that it left yellow goo everywhere. Fortunately that was quickly fixed

It was also a bit ironic that Glock had a pistol about six months before S&W but sometimes being first is not a good thing
Oh man the first Glock 40's were a nightmare...they paid a price for being first. The 22 & 23 had all sorts of problems, while the S&W 4006 worked perfectly from day one, and held up a lot longer than most other pistols. Unfortunately, even though the S&W was the better gun, Glock got out of the gate and crushed S&W.
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Old 02-16-2015, 06:23 PM   #27
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Yes they were. I guess the bottom line is that they put a .40 in a 9mm.
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Old 02-17-2015, 02:49 AM   #28
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And, unless things have changed recently, they're still breaking guns. Our lead armorers son has the 22 as an issue weapon and broke 3 (or was it 4) in their Academy several years ago.

I don't particularly care for the .40 in any of the versions I've tried. That includes the one I'm issued.
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Old 02-17-2015, 08:36 AM   #29
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The Wiki article says that the modular requirement extends to fire control systems (along with grips, magazines, ability to hang suppressors/lights/lasers, etc). If I am remembering right, the SIG is the only pistol with that capability right now. So are we talking about a whole new design for any manufacturer wanting to compete?

My first thought went to the M&P in .45, but can it be easily modified to meet the modular fire control requirements? Seems to have the rest covered since they offer one with a threaded barrel and rails and different size grip panels.

I am with Walt on the gun and caliber. However limited, the .45 ACP is still in the supply chain. .40 S&W ball vs .45 ACP ball? No expert here, but it is a bigger bullet. I have seen the damage .45 ball can do sitting in on a few autopsies. If it strikes bone or organ, it's fairly impressive. Can't imagine a .40 S&W doing any more damage that a .45, except as Charlie said, in penetration.

I'm sure the H&K is a good pistol, I just haven't had the opportunity to play with one. I do know that the M&P .45 feels a lot better to my smaller than average hands than a Glock 21 (but then again I haven't played with a SF version either).
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Old 02-17-2015, 01:18 PM   #30
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That's kind of how I see it, but then it says they don't want a development project, they want an off the shelf solution. So if they doggedly stick to their spec, then it's a sole source thing, and they can cancel the competition right now. Otherwise they compromise on the spec and just say all the entrants are acceptable.

Because as it is, it's not a competition; there's only one.

And they really need to address the cartridge thing up front as well, otherwise they'll just drag this thing out forever testing 2-4 variations of the same gun.


Personally I'd say the smart move regarding NATO would be to tell NATO to take a leap, and just adopt the cartridge we think is most appropriate for the job (oh man that would piss the Brits off, they just bought Glock 17's).

Seriously, we're the only nation in NATO that actually does any fighting on a semi-regularly basis. So since we're the tip of the spear, we should be setting the standard.
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Old 02-17-2015, 01:49 PM   #31
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^^^^
This
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Old 02-18-2015, 06:58 AM   #32
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I think its farcical to specify a life of 35000 rounds when the old 1911 was issued pre ww1 and hung around until 1985- most of which was engaged in service life- be they ship's guns , issued to infantry , etc- most of us in nam had ww2 issue- these were simply rebuilt and "turned over " again-anybody wish to speculate as to what the round count was on those?- 35000 is only 700 boxes of 50- I don't know if it's b/c the 9mm et al operate at roughly 40kpsi compared to the 45acp's 17 or so, but it seems to me that service life is amazingly short
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Old 02-18-2015, 12:58 PM   #33
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I suspect a lot of those guns were carried more than shot.
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Old 02-18-2015, 01:29 PM   #34
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SpecialEd,

I carried a 1911A1 for over a decade & (THANKS BE to God) NEVER drew it in anger in CONUS. = I suspect that my experience is quite typical for MP/MPI/CID personnel.
(Otoh, I did actually use a riot-gun twice during raids AND my retirement date was years ago!!!)

BUT imVho, it's STUPID to NOT arm our senior NCO/WO/Officers, as we GIs now face terrorists, drug dealers & assorted crooks of all sorts "out there". = It's too late to wish that you were CC on the bad day that you BADLY NEED a handgun.

yours, sw
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Old 02-18-2015, 01:57 PM   #35
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SW, I like the FBI's policy of having your firearm on you at ALL times. As you say, better to have it and not need it...
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Old 02-18-2015, 05:22 PM   #36
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SpecialEd,

I do NOT go about unarmed, as I never KNOW what locale is safe & which is definitely NOT. = I either am wearing my P6 or my S&W Model 12.
(BOTH function essentially the same, as the triggers are double action & even "feel" similar.)

yours, sw
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Old 02-19-2015, 08:08 AM   #37
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As the US is the last super power, we have moved from being the nation that everyone looks up to, to the nation everyone hates. Domestic terrorism is on the rise, and overall angst toward the government is way up from Cold War days. I personally think the threat level for random violence and terrorism for soldiers is at its absolute highest ever. So the threat level certainly justifies arming a LOT of soldiers on a base.
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Old 02-19-2015, 11:28 AM   #38
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Kevin Gibson,

Frankly, based on my experience as a PM, the threat from armed criminals is just about as dangerous to individual GIs as terrorism is.

As an example, ONE of the senior NCOs that I had armed with a .38SPL revolver, at one of those posts, was our Post Mess Hall Steward, a MSG/E-8 = MSG Judy A. ____________ arrived one early morning to unlock the facility & "walked up on" an armed thug, who was stealing several cases of "frozen bulk beef".
The thief saw her, pulled a .32ACP pistol & fired one shot in her direction.
The MSG then drew her issued revolver & fired 2 rounds at him, striking the thief in the upper arm & breaking the left clavical.
The armed criminal fled the area & was apprehended by city police at a local ER, while receiving treatment for his wounds. - The thief was arrested/indicted/convicted/imprisoned for Attempted Murder/Grand Theft & is (I believe) still serving his 25 year sentence at a federal prison.

I guess my point is that NOBODY knows when they will BADLY NEED a handgun, so ALWAYS go about your daily routine, armed.

just my OPINION, sw

Last edited by stand watie; 02-19-2015 at 11:30 AM. Reason: clarity/typo
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Old 03-18-2015, 04:14 PM   #39
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I just never got used to those rail mounted lights,just hold my Surefire lights in the hand.
Yep, many of us learned to work a light and a gun at the same time...
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Old 03-19-2015, 09:41 AM   #40
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Yep, many of us learned to work a light and a gun at the same time...
I'm still working on the walking and chewing bubble gun thing.
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