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Old 07-29-2014, 06:31 AM   #1
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Remington recalls, replaces R-51 pistols

Remington To Replace All R-51 Pistols - The Firearm Blog

It looks like Remington is making right by people who purchased the first run of pistols. Looking forward to reviews of the modified new version.

I kind of wish Dean was still posting here. His take on Remington's move here and apparent openness would be interesting.

David
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Old 07-30-2014, 08:45 AM   #2
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A Gun Blogger's details of some problems with an early R-51 are here:

Remington R-51 problems? - Nevada Shooters

And some more:

(More) Remington R51 Problems - Monderno
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Old 03-14-2015, 01:52 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Blake View Post
With all the really tried and true 9mm handguns out there,like the Walther PPQ and the new HK VP9 and so many others I could post. Why would someone waste their hard earned money on the failing Remington R51?
I don't know how the new owners of Remington, the Freedom Group has effected Remington's Engineering and Quality, but I feel something has happened and it is not good.

I read where Remington has absorbed Para USA,and has dropped it's name from their line up. It will just be another Remington handgun, I don't get it.

Now back to the R51 Maybe in their marketing plan, of rushing a small 9mm carry type handgun out the door with the R51,they have by passed real world testing needed and just shipped them off to be sold.

After finding they are not working,they will now replace all of the ones sold with the new R51. Well I hope for Remington and all the R51 buyers of the old R51 sake it works out good.

Since I purchased the original R51 and am waiting for the replacement for it let me comment.
At the time I purchased it (@11 months ago now) I hardly thought of it as a "failing Remington R51." It seemed to me to be a interesting looking small 9mm. handgun with a singe-stack magazine and a rather unusual operating mechanism. Also, upon personnally examining it on purchase, I noted that it fit my hand very well. It is (to me atleast) very ergodynamic and pointable.
The triggerguard, being slightly undercut, made it a good fit for my hand.
The thing that disturbed me is that as nice as it looked externally, the insides were pretty rough. Also, I heard too many reports of them being "short-chambered." I've heard very few (none I can recall) of any catastrophic failures, but stories of loose rear sights and other proeblems were unfortunatly common.
I am still hoping that the replacements turn out successful and it becomes a good gun for Remington. I am still strongly considering it as a carry gun.
Whether or not Remington can weather this storm, or not, is anyone's guess.
A lot of guns have had rrough introductions into the commercial scene. Springfield's XDs series is one example. Stories of them firing upon chambering a round had them undergo a recall for a replacement part to cure the unintended discharges -- even though these reports were very rare.
If one buys a stapler that isn't quit perfect one might be forgiving of the matter if it works 99% of the time but with a gun, that 1% of the time could kill someone. You just can't overlook malfunctioning guns.
Yes, there are some other nice guns out there.
Some of us think the R51 may become one of them.
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Old 03-14-2015, 03:02 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Blake View Post
I blame a lot of the problems on the Freedom Group pushing Remington to get the R51 out quickly to the Suppliers and their Dealers .

I hate seeing big money groups grabbing up all the old firearm companies,and just sucking them dry with poor quality firearms.
.
There's an old saw about not attributing the results of stupidity to evil intent. What you have in many cases is money people who have little or no manufacturing experience. If they've got brains (and they ignore the Microsoft model), they're going to figure out that shoving product out the door without proper development is a recipie for failure and loss of market share.

That being said, the test of a manufacturer is both the quality of the product and the quality of problem resolution. Remington may have flubbed the first with the R51, but they seem to be doing a good attempt at recovery and restoration of customer faith.
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Old 03-14-2015, 09:21 PM   #5
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There is a simple answer to why someone would buy a Remington when there are so many others.

It's called brand loyalty.

If Colt comes out with a new model there are probably enough people who will buy it because of the name alone. Same for almost any brand you can name. We have a group here that is not representative because most of us shoot.

When someone mentions Dean the first thing that comes to mind is Glock's "let no one call it a recall... it is a product improvement."

I think there is a large grain of truth in the statement that there aren't very many GUN people left in manufacturing. If you look at press releases of new hired upper management they have come from companies far removed from firearms.

When S&W supported the magazine capacity ban their owners had not the merest clue about the mindset of their customers. I was at the Shot show right after that and people were wearing buttons saying, "Smith & Wesson Must Die" and their huge booth was largely occupied by employees.

Remington is doing the right thing and if there is a legitimate gripe if is just that it took them too long to figure out how to fix it.
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Old 03-15-2015, 09:23 AM   #6
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Not to Rub Your Nose in It...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyGunn View Post
Since I purchased the original R51 and am waiting for the replacement for it let me comment.
At the time I purchased it (@11 months ago now) I hardly thought of it as a "failing Remington R51." It seemed to me to be a interesting looking small 9mm. handgun with a singe-stack magazine and a rather unusual operating mechanism. Also, upon personnally examining it on purchase, I noted that it fit my hand very well.
...but I've become a pretty devoted follower of Evan Marshall's one-year rule: Wait at least one year - for debugging - before buying any newly designed firearm. (I'd be willing to make an exception for something such as a different barrel offering on a revolver as that should not affect the actual mechanism.)

I also give heed to what Evan used to call the Walmart rule: When selecting a chambering for a defensive firearm, stop and ask if you'd be likely to find ammo for it if you were driving across the country and had to stop at a local Walmart for more ammo. Granted, that rule was promulgated before the shortages and the combination of the rule and the shortages has led me to risk placing a box of my preferred load for my carry guns in the glove compartment of my truck, just in case.
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Old 03-15-2015, 09:29 AM   #7
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It seems to me, spwenger, I've heard that as well ....

Sometime after I bought the R-51.

Being a Beta tester is so cool.
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Old 03-15-2015, 11:26 AM   #8
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I agree with both of Evan's rules but if nobody buys the first ones we may never find problems.

Remington has always been tight lipped and when the .45 came along said everything was made in Ilion which was highly unlikely. Rumors flew but nothing was confirmed so I quite worrying about it. A little later I got to test one of the "enhanced" models and was great.

Then the pistols were moved to Para's new plant in Pineville, NC and now they are supposed to be moving again...oh well.

One thing I do know is that former president said, "we will never make another pistol." oh... well

If you ask me what they should have done is bring back the original 51.
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Old 03-15-2015, 05:05 PM   #9
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Had a few discontented guns my self...
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Old 03-17-2015, 09:52 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Blake View Post
A good example of a rock solid firearm Mfg. is HK,while there were many striker fired handguns getting to market. The Walther PPQ as one.

HK took four years of looking the other Mfg.s handguns and really doing a lot of testing of their HK VP9.

Even as Walther and others were getting good reviews and making them a lot of money.
HK held fast and when they thought it was ready they let it be shipped,and it's been a good striker fired handgun. I bought one even already owning a Walther PPQ and P99.
I sure hope you're right about H&K with the VP9; I really like that pistol.

But H&K, industry record setting marketing not withstanding, is not a company that's famous for having their act together. They have the best marketing on the planet, which has produces a stellar reputation. But that reputation is not always deserved. They have had as much or more problems than most any other large manufacturer of firearms, and they haven't always done well at correcting them.

The most blaring H&K issue right now is the G-36 rifle which has been in service with the German military and various other military organizations for over 20 years. Yet they apparently still have not settled the heat issues with this rifle that has plagued it from day one.

I sure hope H&K has done their homework because I wouldn't mind it one bit if the VP9 became our next service pistol...I really like it.
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Old 03-17-2015, 10:03 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by spwenger View Post
...but I've become a pretty devoted follower of Evan Marshall's one-year rule: Wait at least one year - for debugging - before buying any newly designed firearm. (I'd be willing to make an exception for something such as a different barrel offering on a revolver as that should not affect the actual mechanism.)

I also give heed to what Evan used to call the Walmart rule: When selecting a chambering for a defensive firearm, stop and ask if you'd be likely to find ammo for it if you were driving across the country and had to stop at a local Walmart for more ammo. Granted, that rule was promulgated before the shortages and the combination of the rule and the shortages has led me to risk placing a box of my preferred load for my carry guns in the glove compartment of my truck, just in case.
I have always personally extended that out to 5 years, and I can't count how many pistols (R51 included) that had my rapt attention, that my policy has kept me from owning.

One time back in the '80's I set my policy aside and bought not one, but two of the Solothurn made Springfield P9's, the copy of the CZ-75. I figured since the CZ-75 was so well established, the Swiss firm of Solothurn would do nothing but improve on the manufacturing quality...W R O N G ! ! !

Those two pistols were plagued by frequent parts breakage despite the fact the the manufacturing quality APPEARED first rate. No matter how good a pistol looks, you can't evaluate the materials manufacturing and materials suitability of a pistol through any other method than time.

I will trust no name or design until it has withstood the test of time. And for me, my MINIMUM qualification is 5 years of service.

Look at all the issues with Glock, took more than 5 years to work out the bugs. It's had 25 years of development. Not that I have one, but that's one pistol I could trust. Beretta has had 25 years of service with the US military, there IS no tougher standard than that...that's a pistol I can trust. Sig has had 25 years of US military service, another good pistol choice.
Browning Hi Power has them all beat.
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Old 03-18-2015, 07:50 AM   #12
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You say "they got it right the first time," but remember, H&K has been evolving their handguns since the early 50s and their first striker-fired gun was developed in the 60s. (Before there was an H&K some of their engineers worked for Mauser and developed the Hsc.) So nothing happens overnight and the VP9 has a long history of evolution behind it.
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Old 03-18-2015, 07:59 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Blake View Post
With all the really tried and true 9mm handguns out there,like the Walther PPQ and the new HK VP9 and so many others I could post. Why would someone waste their hard earned money on the failing Remington R51? ......
You answered your own question. In one sentence you say "tried and true"... and "the new HK VP9," which completely negates your "tried and true" argument. How long was the VP9 out before you bought it? I imagine it looked nice and got early favorable reviews, much like the Remington, so I'm guessing people bought the Remington for all the same reasons you bought the VP9.
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Old 03-18-2015, 08:06 AM   #14
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If I was asked what firearm company, I would trust with a brand new handgun I would pick HK. Not that there track record is perfect,but IMHO it's been a lot better then many of the others.

Look at their new VP9 seems they got it right the first time,it's getting great reviews from buyers.
That got me thinking... Which maker has the best track record? Most of them have had some big hits, but none have had hits that were right the first try...NONE of them.

The VP9 is an impressive pistol. I'm the original H&K basher, and I simpley LOVE the VP 9. But I'm also a realist. The VP9 looks great right now, but give it some time to find out where they got it wrong. I guarantee you as sure as I'm sitting here, they will find some issues with the VP9. I just hope H&K is torturing the hell out of that pistol to find out where it fails before they submit samples for government testing. Of the pistols that are being offered up, the Sig P320, FN's FNS, and the VP9 are the ones that I'm most impressed with . And of those three, I like the VP9 the best personally; but I don't know that it has the Sig P320 beat when I think about the needs of the US military. The truly modular design of the P320 is really quite brilliant when you think about a military maintaining pistols, and making changes to those pistols for specific use/missions. Only the P320 and the new Beretta have that design.
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Old 03-18-2015, 10:07 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Blake View Post
I read where HK worked on their new striker fired handgun the VP9 four (4) years. Sure they had a striker fired handgun many years ago,and knew a lot about them. They also looked at what Walther was building,all firearm Mfg.s do this.

What I was implying is when they started shipping the VP9 to the suppliers,it was good to go. It has not needed a recall or a complete re-Design and re-Engineering.
...so I'm not really in the market for a newly designed pistol. Still, I hope you won't take it personally if I continue to advise others to wait at least a year to ensure that it has "not needed a recall or a complete re-Design and re-Engineering."

You're certainly free to rely on reputation but I don't advise friends to volunteer as beta-testers for equipment that could mean the difference between life and death.
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Old 03-18-2015, 11:14 AM   #16
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Gee, if only the other firearms manufacturers had modern facilities and measured and tested their components... what a novel idea.
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Old 03-18-2015, 11:23 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Ralph Blake View Post
No you are wrong I bought a Walther PPQ M1 9mm also their P99 9mm. I also have two HK USP Compacts a .40s&w and.45acp. So I knew about HK history of building quality handguns.
So when they started reviewing the HK VP9s and I took a good look at one,I felt it was a good handgun to add to my little group of handguns.

By the way a little side note. I have only found it written in my HK USP manuals that they say, you can use +p and P+P Ammo. in them.
You ever find this in any other Mfg. handgun manual?

To me this says a lot about HKs thinking, the first HK, Designed and Engineered for the American buyer as the USP Compacts were,they knew failures were not an option.
How am I wrong? I said people bought the Remington for the same reasons you bought the VP9. How long has the gun been on the market? How many rounds have you put through it to confirm it is a good gun. Remington has a good reputation too. So you trusted H&K, just as Tommy, et al, trusted Remington. The "tried and true" claim goes out the window. What does Walther have to do with it?

Last edited by SpecialEd; 03-18-2015 at 11:27 AM.
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Old 03-18-2015, 11:26 AM   #18
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Well I bet you won't see HK being bought up by the Freedom Group, like Remington has been bought and many other American companies.
And that's relevant to what?
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Old 03-18-2015, 11:52 AM   #19
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And there has to be a limit to these replies.
I was thinking the same thing.
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Old 03-19-2015, 10:01 AM   #20
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The modular design of the Sig P320 makes some sense to the military. And on paper it kinda looks good for a civilian until you really add it all up; you could just as easy get another gun. So that "feature" for civilians is dubious at best. But for a military like ours, I can see where it could really be the bee's knees. If the gun survives the torture testing, I think Sig could have a really good shot at it.

I've never heard of S&W actually beating the Beretta. There was one stage where it was questionable about S&W being eliminated (I can't recall the controversy off the top of my head now), and S&W sued but lost out. My recollection was that eliminating S&W at that stage wasn't a great idea. But I also recall what the mean rounds between failures, S&W was still behind Beretta and Sig, so it's not likely that the S&W was going to make it in the end anyhow.

It should be noted that while the M9 has had it's issues, quietly in the background the M11 had a whole bunch of issues as well. Any idiot could have recognized that the stamped slide with the pinned in block was going to be problematic. Just like any idiot could have looked at the most common failure of the P-38 and known that the locking blocks on the M9 would be an issue. Hell, they were an issue with the 1951 Beretta also, so there really shouldn't have been any surprises.

So while the S&W 3rd gen may not have gone as many rounds between failures, I'm quite confident that they would have done much better in the long run for long term durability.

That Mk-25 you have is a very different pistol in some significant ways from what was tested in 1985-85. Sigs are now made with solid CNC milled slides which significantly increased the durability of the slides on both the 226 and the M11.

As for Beretta keeping the contract. I know many who would agree with you there, but I think they're serious this time. The previous programs were canceled mainly because we were at war, and changing weapons in the middle of a war is a really bad idea. Now that theoretically we're no longer at war, I think they're going to actually do it this time.

The M9 is perhaps the most reliable pistol in the world when we talk mean rounds between failure. But, it's very unpopular with the troops. Like the M16 for 20 years after Vietnam, it's fighting it's early reputation of slide failures, and the DOD's procurement of piss poor magazines...a reputation casts a long shadow. So even though it's extremely reliable, people still lack confidence in the pistol just on rumor.

And the slide mounted safety (which I've always disliked) has quite predictably proven to be a VERY unpopular feature (that's the biggest reason our special ops don't use the M9), because it's easily accidentally deployed. Had they switched it to a decocker years ago, the M9 would be 10x more popular, but they didn't.

The M9 still has a large grip that just doesn't fit many hands, so there are a lot of smaller framed people who have a rather difficult time reaching the trigger to get a proper grip.

The M9 is a BIG pistol; bigger than it needs to be. When it was designed, big was actually preferred because most shoot a large pistol better than a smaller one. But times change and so do guns, the M9 is very dated, and it's overall size makes it bigger than it needs to be. Funny thing is, the Sig 226 is just as big, yet remains popular...which makes me think the real killer remains that slide mounted safety.

So with all that going against the M9, and the fact that a service handgun is a relatively inexpensive upgrade. I think the military is serious this time, and I personally think they'll make a change. To what, who knows.

Back in '85 I was quite confident the Beretta would win. It had won every pistol test the US had since 1976 so I had no reason to believe anyone would beat it.

This time around, the field is WAY tighter and less predictable. There are several quite viable competing designs and it's anyone's game. This will be very interesting to watch, and I'll be watching with rapt attention.
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