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Old 09-28-2016, 03:02 AM   #1
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Single Stack, Compact 9mm for General Issue

"Come on all ya big strong men your Uncle Sam needs your help again..."
Assuming we suddenly get some intelligent leadership in the Pest Hole on the Potomac next January and the C-in-C orders all military officers to return to the 1920's level of honor and integrity and carry a personal sidearm at all times, what should be issued/purchased?

It is a heck of a note that in the former Warsaw Pact countries their military officers carried sidearms at all times and the USofA forbids such carry, which has resulted in too many deaths.

I can make the obvious case for the Ruger LCR in 9mm and the Beretta PX-4 Compact with the same manual of arms as the M-9.

Geoff
Who has been carrying his Kahr P9094N lately, but has just re-qualified his S&W SW9VE for Home Defense to free up his SWaMPy 9c.
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Old 09-28-2016, 05:51 AM   #2
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Well, if we're returning to the 1920s level of integrity, how about returning to the 1920s sidearm and issue 1911 .45 ACPs? Is the Army stuck on crunch-n-tickers?

Last edited by csmkersh; 09-28-2016 at 07:11 AM. Reason: verb tense
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Old 09-28-2016, 07:22 AM   #3
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Why would we need to buy anything? They would carry exposed, so carry an M9 in the issue holsters we have. If neither are up to the job, then why on Earth do we have them?
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Old 09-28-2016, 07:28 AM   #4
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Why stay with a 9 when a .45ACP does the job better?
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Old 09-28-2016, 07:56 AM   #5
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csmkersh,

The short answer is that the USA agreed to the policy that ALL of the NATO nations would procure/issue 9x19mm handguns/ammunition & the .5.56x45mm for longarms, rather than any other calibers in the early 1980s.
(Perhaps we should not have but the DoD did agree to the NATO policy for "interoperability".)

My problem with the M9 is that it's TOO BIG/BULKY for many service-member's hands to shoot well. - ImVho, we should "surplus off" the M9 & procure the M11 (essentially the "military version" of the Sig-Sauer P226) for "general issue", to SM who are issued a handgun.
(What we use for "general issue" has ZILCH to do with what "special units" may be issued on a "limited issue" basis. - Some "special duty units" are currently issued/using the .45ACP.)

Btw, it is my position that we should issue all commissioned officers, warrant officers & senior NCOs (in the top 3 grades) a handgun for "general on-duty carry".
(IF the belief is that we have SNCO/officers/WO who are unfit to be trusted to carry a handgun, perhaps those untrustworthy individuals shouldn't be SM.)

yours, sw

Last edited by stand watie; 09-28-2016 at 08:01 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 09-28-2016, 10:15 AM   #6
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stand watie,

I agree the M9 is too bulky for folks with small hands regardless of their gender. I just don't like the pistol. I retired as they were phasing out the 1911. I managed to scrounge a shoulder rig for the 1911 and carried all over Germany that way.

FWI, Texas Department of Public Safety has stopped training/issuing the Smith & Wesson M&P 9 mm. They had planned to use it to replace the SIG P226 in 357 SIG.

https://www.texastribune.org/2014/04...over-concerns/-

Last edited by csmkersh; 09-28-2016 at 10:29 AM.
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Old 09-28-2016, 10:47 AM   #7
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csmkersh,

IF the DPS allowed their troopers AGAIN to carry their own personally-owned handguns (as the DPS once did), I suspect that the M1911 Colt's SA would be the personal selection of most troopers, as it is for the vast majority of our Rangers.
(One Ranger that I know has THREE Colt's .45ACP pistols.)

yours, sw
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Old 09-28-2016, 11:47 AM   #8
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stand watie,

Back when Bexar County Sheriff's Department required the troops to furnish their side arms the 1911 and Colt SAA were most common. And you are correct; the Rangers loved their 1911s and SAAs. Some tended toward "Barbeque" guns; beautifully engraved and well stocked with wood or ivory grips.
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Old 09-28-2016, 12:19 PM   #9
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Well if we issue sidearms to soldiers, the M9 is what will be issued until it is replaced. Like it or not, it's what we have.

The M9 could end up being replaced with the Modular Handgun, but I only give that program about a 10% chance of going all the way through.

ETA - Personally I think the Beretta APX is a very promising design; looks very well thought out. But it's BRAND NEW, so I doubt it's going to fare well against the more mature guns such as Glock or Sig 320.

Last edited by GunGeek; 09-28-2016 at 12:22 PM.
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Old 09-28-2016, 01:59 PM   #10
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csmkersh,

Fwiw, in late the mid-1980s I was asked by the presiding city judge to establish a City Marshal's Office for SA & planned to use the Sig-Sauer P225 as the duty weapon with the 1911 Colt's SA being accepted for carry by "special permission". - My plan was to have all the Marshals in civilian clothing & be paid a pittance in salary, with "fees" for lawful apprehensions being paid. = That's how the old-time DUSM were compensated, btw.
(I never took the position as my lady become very ill, during what became her final illness & I finally returned to military AD, until I retired, after she passed away.)

My 2 handguns, that are in my will, are my P225 & my (daily CCW) S&W Model 12 "snubbie".

yours, sw
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Old 09-28-2016, 02:06 PM   #11
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I had never bought a Sig because I'm just not a fan of the TDA system. Then I test fired a Sig 320 and instantly bought it. With the possible exception of a 1911 it's the most comfortable handgun I've ever held, and the DAO striker system is pure simplicity. It has the requisite collection of backstops for custom fit, the takedown is very simple, and it's been totally reliable. It seems to weigh about half what Beretta weighs.

If DoD goes with the 320, I'll be completely on board.
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Old 09-28-2016, 04:50 PM   #12
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Personally... well, stick with the M9 I guess, but authorize private-purchase 9mm 1911s or Glocks with CO approval. (Individual exercising such option must provide own magazines.)

(Speaking for myself, you'd have to break and rearrange every bone in my hand to make an M9 fit it... it's not necesssarily just the size, for me it's bad geometry all around.)
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Old 09-30-2016, 04:33 AM   #13
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Folks,
What we need is a weapon that can be carried all the time. Now big guns can be carried by some people, but my 1911 is not compatible with Florida attire despite what Tom Selleck did on "Magnum PI". Can a person really sit in a Ferrari with a 1911 behind his right hip, just to the right of the spine?

As I have mentioned before, in the Spanish civil war the Luftwaffe pilots preferred the Walther PPK and similar pistols, because they could carry it all the time, as opposed to Lugers.

Something like a Ruger LC9 Pro or the Kahr appeals.

Geoff
Who once went to an Army sponsored bull session on new pistols in the 1970s, I went in the door favoring big DA/SA hi cap pistols and came out a fan of the SIG P6!
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Old 09-30-2016, 07:12 AM   #14
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Skeptic49,

NO disagreement from me. = In my PM & USACIDC days, I routinely carried an M11 under my blouse & had no trouble concealing it, even under a polo shirt. - The M11 is "issue" for USACIDC special agents, btw.
(I'll openly tell anyone who asks that the M9 doesn't fit me well.)

The Sig-Sauer P6 is essentially the same handgun as the P225 & most everyone, including my adult daughter (who has "smaller than average" hands - Noemi wears a size 4 in a ring!) shoots the P6/P225 acceptably well.

yours, sw
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Old 09-30-2016, 02:40 PM   #15
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I guess if Clinton becomes president, we can just issue Makarov's.
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Old 09-30-2016, 03:13 PM   #16
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If Clinton is elected she will have straws and spitwads issued .....
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Old 09-30-2016, 04:04 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GunGeek View Post
I guess if Clinton becomes president, we can just issue Makarov's.
Why? We won't actually be fighting anyone, anywhere. Unless of course it's ordinary Americans, on American soil.
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Old 10-01-2016, 05:19 PM   #18
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Tommy, Snake and Kevin...a big plus 1 to each.

As far as the proposed "what if", well it certainly won't be the full sized issue military handgun, whatever it is if and when this change in policy occurs . (I personally don't think it will ever happen no matter who is elected)

The M9 is a good weapon, but I don't see any officer lugging one around on a daily basis. It always struck me as way to big a platform for the payload it carries.

"Badge of Office" handguns have historically been chosen more for comfort than than utility. It would probably be something small, light and single stack in the standard issue caliber. Hell, something along the line of S&W's Ladysmith (rebranded of course) comes to mind.
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Old 10-01-2016, 06:57 PM   #19
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IrishCop,

While the M9 is adequate for uniformed carry (Most MALE Military Police LIKE the M9 & the M11, too.), MANY people, including any number of female MPs, who have smaller than average hands don't shoot it well.
(The same people don't usually shoot the M1911A1 well either.)

yours, sw
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Old 10-01-2016, 07:05 PM   #20
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Oh, no argument from me about the M9, SW. It (in fact MOST double stack magazine fed handguns) feel like 2X4's in my hands. The Hi Power and CZ pistols are some of the few exceptions.
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