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Old 04-16-2005, 02:56 PM   #1
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Glock 19 Blow-up's

C.W.

Regarding your post on your Glock 19 going "KA-BOOM". In 2004, I competed in the IDPA Winter Nationals. On of the shooters (from New York state) on my squad also blow up his Glock 19. This occured with factory ammunition. It seems most of the Glock self-destructs are attributed to the unsupported chamber.

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Old 04-16-2005, 04:16 PM   #2
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Dean, are you not supposed to now comment here? To ask that the poster supply details such as follows?

Who was the shooter? What brand of ammo? On what stage, squad number and day? Was it a stock gun, modified, home gunsmithed?

I didn't shoot this year but none of the 15 guys from my club that did go have mentioned this and more than a few are Glock shooters.

Also, this incident has not made it to the gun forums I frequent(although I do not "do" Glock Talk.)

Inquiring minds want to know.
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Old 04-16-2005, 04:44 PM   #3
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Glock Blow-up

Walt:

The only other details I can provide was that this incident occured in the presence of the squad. The shooter stated to the rest of the squad that the ammunition was factory. I have no idea if he "gunsmithed" the pistol. The range officer running the shooter was Jeff Whitehouse, who you may know as Jeff has worked every Winter national since the inception of the match.
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Old 04-16-2005, 04:45 PM   #4
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Re: Glock 19 Blow-up's

Quote:
Originally Posted by sky buster
It seems most of the Glock self-destructs are attributed to the unsupported chamber.
This would be my fly in the ointment. The Glock 9mm does have a supported chamber, at least the 17 and 19.

I don't "do" GT either. Not that I know it from anything else, I just never stumbled onto it before I found this bar. After hearing some of the disparaging comments, no need in trying.
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Old 04-16-2005, 04:54 PM   #5
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Glock blow-up

Walt:

My comments on the Glock blow-up at the 04 Winter nationals were simply a statement of what occured to a particular Glock 19. They were not meant to be disparaging. I just wanted the other poster to know he was not the the only person to have a Glock 9mm let go.
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Old 04-16-2005, 06:18 PM   #6
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Thanks. I have more than a passing interest in the subject of Glocks as I get to "hear" both sides frequently.


Curiously, the only guns I witnessed "blowing up" were bolt action rifles, a revolver or two and at least three 1911s on various occasions. Causes included bad reloads,(pick your caliber here), "tired" .45ACP cases, firing 1918 dated .45ACP in 1979(case heads blew off from decaying powder), firing the wrong caliber ammo and/or over throating via Dremel tool.

"Curiously" as I have been around a whole bunch of stuff that goes bang over my lifetime and should have encountered more.
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Old 04-16-2005, 08:15 PM   #7
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I'd like to propose that we characterize handgun KB's two ways:

1. Case rupture. This would cover the majority of Glock incidents but would be characterized by rupture of the cartridge case in the area of the feed ramp. This could be due to lack of case support whether done by the factory or inept dremelizer. In these the case ruptures in the 6:00 position and results in venting of gas down through the magazine well. These can occur with either factory or handloaded ammo and typically blow out the magazine and sometimes damage trigger components or the dust cover.

2. Catastrophic failure: these are the true blowups where the gun is typically destroyed with rupture of the barrel or cylinder and frequent damage to both frame and slide. These are most often caused by high pressure loads and are often traced to handloader error but could also be due to metallurgical problem in the manufacture of the gun. Even though we hear claims that factory loads produced catastrophic failures they are quite rare. We often hear that the powder "detonated" and caused the damage. With typical small arms powder charges this is considered to be impossible and even though there have been attempts to produce true detonation under laboratory conditions that has not been shown to be possible. Typical smokeless powder burns at a rate of 4000 fps or less but in to reach a high order detonation requires~16,000 fps or more.

While I certainly see guns that have failed I'm like Walt and truly surprised that they don't happen on a daily basis. Glocks do have generously sized chambers and feed ramps that are sometimes cut so deeply that lots of brass above the web is left swinging in the breeze but even then I think it takes a combination of misfortunes to result in a Type 1 failure. Examples: pressure a little high, brass that has been loaded many times, a small invisible flaw in the brass and the ever-present Gremlin.

My point is that we leap to conclusions and rush to judgement based on only one side of a story that might have been nothing more than a hapless reloader who could not bring himself to admit that he might have double charged a case.

And I think the board ought to adopt the "hearsay rule" and unless the report is a first hand witness account we should turn our critical thinking burner to "high" and ask lots of tough questions.
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Old 04-16-2005, 11:19 PM   #8
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Re: Glock 19 Blow-up's

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bravo762
Quote:
Originally Posted by sky buster
It seems most of the Glock self-destructs are attributed to the unsupported chamber.
This would be my fly in the ointment. The Glock 9mm does have a supported chamber, at least the 17 and 19.

I don't "do" GT either. Not that I know it from anything else, I just never stumbled onto it before I found this bar. After hearing some of the disparaging comments, no need in trying.
Sorry for what may be a dumb question but what is meant by saying a certain pistol has a 'supported chamber' or 'unsupported chamber'? Does this have to do with the area where the feed ramp intersects the chamber, or something else?
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Old 04-17-2005, 08:10 AM   #9
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That's probablya misnomer too for the chamber itself isn't the isse. It is the cartridge case and you are correct in saying it is the area where the feed ramp transistions into the chamber.

The ideal situation would be where the entire cartridge case forward of the extractor groove is within the chamber. Sometimes- often with Glocks- some portion of the case is not within the chamber.
It is only a problem if the unsupported area is large and extends far enough forward into the chamber to leave and area where the brass begins to get thinner as it tapers to final wall thickness. Then a slightly over pressure round, a case that has been reloaded multipile times or one with an unseen flaw in the brass might rupture.
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Old 04-17-2005, 02:27 PM   #10
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Well done Walt! I've seen a couple of nasty blow-ups too, neither of which I would say had anything to do with the stock pistol itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Petty
.....inept dremelizer......
You realize you just coined a term that will be with us for generations?

The worst offender I've met as far as unsupported chambers go would be a Taurus PT908.

While I have little real fear of the Glock 22 or 23 per se, I've played with the 40 and don't find it to be for me, in any platform. These are typically the models heard of as far as Glock kB! issues go. Simple answer: claim "no compromise!" and run with a 9 or a 45, but nothing between
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Old 04-17-2005, 04:54 PM   #11
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This mater of supported vs unsupported barrels came into being in IPSC/USPSA competition in the late 1980s. Stop and consider this, until this shooting group who were and are hot rodding -over loading .38 Super and 9x19mm, the discussion of one chamber over another did not occur. Most autos do not have "supported" chambers.

I can't prove it but I speculate this was picked up and became part of the guerrilla campaign waged against Glock when this gun began grabbing the lion's share of the LE market.

I've met but very few who readily admitted they, not the gun caused the rapid disassembly.


Now add in to this mix, hand loads,"normal" ammo manufacturing error, dirty chambers and guns and you have "Glocks blow up."

Having said this, I too am not a .40 fan in any handgun. Short fat case, high pressure =s not good(for me).
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Old 04-17-2005, 05:20 PM   #12
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[quote="Walt Rauch"]This mater of supported vs unsupported barrels came into being in IPSC/USPSA competition in the late 1980s. Stop and consider this, until this shooting group who were and are hot rodding -over loading .38 Super and 9x19mm, the discussion of one chamber over another did not occur. Most autos do not have "supported" chambers.
/quote]

Walt I remember reading somewhere that you could always tell the .38 super guys cause they all had beards to cover the scars.

Ed
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Old 04-17-2005, 06:03 PM   #13
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*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Walt
Dean, are you not supposed to now comment here? To ask that the poster supply details such as follows?
Why? I've had this particular event included in the Glock kB! FAQ for over a year now.
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Old 04-17-2005, 06:16 PM   #14
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Re: Glock 19 Blow-up's

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkG
Sorry for what may be a dumb question but what is meant by saying a certain pistol has a 'supported chamber' or 'unsupported chamber'? Does this have to do with the area where the feed ramp intersects the chamber, or something else?
Maybe "more supported" and "less supported" would be better.
[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/cas6969/misc/support.jpg[/img]
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Old 04-17-2005, 06:33 PM   #15
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Glock Bloww-up

CAS:

Excellant illustrations! The comparison couldn't be clearer.
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Old 04-18-2005, 08:50 AM   #16
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Another illustration...

of the supported/unsupported chambers of various (.40 caliber) guns... as I didn't take the photo I can make no claim regarding the veracity of same- but having had several of the mentioned firearms disassembled, I can certainly recognize at least some of the barrels represented therein, and those are exactly what the captions say they are.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/att ... ntid=12318
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Old 04-18-2005, 04:24 PM   #17
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Just to add more trivial info, my Sig 357Sig looks pretty much like that Steyr 40 in the picture. My Kahr 9mm on the other hand, is much worse than the Glock as far as being unsupported, and sticking quite far out the rear of the chamber.
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Old 04-18-2005, 04:33 PM   #18
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In a similar oddity, there is a picture somewhere on TGZ that shows the Glock's chamber to be far better supported in a 357 SIG chambering than in several other calibers, including .40 and 9mm, I think.
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Old 04-18-2005, 08:33 PM   #19
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The 9mm case is much thicker at the web and doesn't need nearly as much support and there have been very few reoprts of case rupture in the 9.
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Old 04-18-2005, 10:49 PM   #20
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The 9mm case is thicker? I thought it would last better due to lower pressure... What is the difference in pressure between 9mm and .40S&W? Thanks for the pics CAS. Sarge, I couldnt get your link to work. Now I have to ask whether Glock's legendary feeding reliability is due to them having an inept dremalizer on staff at the factory? hehe Actually a friend has a .45 ACP glock, dont know what model number b/c Im not really into glocks... anyway he had some SWC gunshow reloads, which wouldnt feed through it, but my Para ate them fine, except for one round that just wouldnt chamber, and that seemed to be a dimensional problem, not a consequence of the bullet shape.
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