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Old 05-20-2013, 09:10 AM   #1
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Trainig accident claims lives of two FBI Agents in VA

Two Hostage Rescue Team agents were lost, the article implies they may have been practicing fast roping onto a Ship. Sad, and it reminds one that the training they do is dangerous too.

Two FBI agents killed in accident in Virginia Beach area - The Washington Post
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Old 05-20-2013, 08:42 PM   #2
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Back just before the First Gulf War there was a big stink about helicopter crashes when the crew were training with fast, low altitude, night vision missions.

The articles more or less demanded that such dangerous training be stopped.
Shortly after, the First Gulf War started, with the opening missions conducted by night vision equipped helicopters.

You fight like you train. If you don't train you fail. GOOD training is dangerous and unfortunately, good people get killed in good training.
If you just "phone it in" because it's dangerous, when you need it for real, you often fail.
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Old 05-21-2013, 06:31 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by dfariswheel View Post
... You fight like you train. If you don't train you fail. GOOD training is dangerous and unfortunately, good people get killed in good training.
If you just "phone it in" because it's dangerous, when you need it for real, you often fail.

I recall a story about infantry training; this occured just after WW2. Soldiers were being trained how to syncronize their activity with artillery bombardment. An accident happened killing some soldiers. A lady kongresskritter (they apparently had 'em back then too) got her panties in a wad and caused enough of a s-storm that this training got either eliminated or removed -- no more live fire artillery!

Then along came the Korean War. "You fight like you train." True, dfariswheel. But when you haven't trained you don't fight; you die.

I often think we ought to elect representatives who have a better understanding of what it takes to succeed in warfare.........
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Old 05-21-2013, 06:59 AM   #4
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that "sweeping bombardment " thing goes back to ww1- but EVERYONE has to be on the same page- it was a favorite of the 'empire"( not starwars) but the infantry had to advance at a measured pace and the arty laid down fire in front so many yards- there's a formula( you know how brits love math) which was blast radius plus feet- just the same as live fire during basic- the one where you crawl under the barbed wire and the machine gun is set at about 6-0 feet above you- some armies STILL train that way
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Old 05-22-2013, 07:31 PM   #5
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has everyone forgotten who murdered Randy Weaver's wife, and all the kids at Waco? it wasn't the ATF, it was the FBI who did those things.
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Old 05-22-2013, 07:44 PM   #6
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has everyone forgotten who murdered Randy Weaver's wife, and all the kids at Waco? it wasn't the ATF, it was the FBI who did those things.
So what?....all FBI agents should die? I think your on the wrong site my friend. If that's your justification for that lousy statement..these men were training to save lives, unlike David Karish. As a retired L/E officer, I take umbrage to your words...But as a former cop, I protected your right to be wrong
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Old 05-22-2013, 07:58 PM   #7
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maybe, and maybe they are the same jackbooted thugs that we've suffered under in the past, too.
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Old 05-22-2013, 08:01 PM   #8
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maybe, and maybe they are the same jackbooted thugs that we've suffered under in the past, too.
we suffer under one now...at the very top. He forces his will upon the masses with care or concern..should he die?
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Old 05-22-2013, 08:07 PM   #9
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has everyone forgotten who murdered Randy Weaver's wife, and all the kids at Waco? it wasn't the ATF, it was the FBI who did those things.
An absurd and insulting non sequitor. Lon Horiuchi was the FBI sniper who shot Randy Weaver's wife, and there were also U.S. Marshals involved in the Ruby Ridge shootings. All this was adjucated through the U.S. court system.
Grave errors of judgement, if not law, were made.
No one has "forgotten" Ruby Ridge, nor dare I say, Waco.
Some of the harshest critics of those incidents were many of the LEOs who were there.
Nor is it appropriate to blame an entire agency, ad infinititum, for specific acts, unless it can be proven that those acts stemmed from United States' policy, or federal agency policy, and I'll save the trouble:
IT CAN'T.

So enough, OK?
I doubt there's anyone on this board who approves of what happened to either the Weavers or the Branch Davidians. So let's keep the black helicopter/conspiracy / militia / Alex Jones stuff where it belongs;
away from THIS forum! Please?

Last edited by TommyGunn; 05-22-2013 at 08:11 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 05-22-2013, 08:09 PM   #10
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An absurd and insulting non sequitor. Lon Horiuchi was the FBI sniper who shot Randy Weaver's wife, and there were also U.S. Marshals involved in the Ruby Ridge shootings. All this was adjucated through the U.S. court system.
Grave errors of jedgement, if not law, were made.
No one has "forgotten" Ruby Ridge, nor dare I say, Waco.
Some of the harshest critics of those incidents were many of the LEOs who were there.
Nor is it appropriate to blame an entire agency, ad infinititum, for specific acts, unless it can be proven that those acts stemmed from United States' policy, or federal agency policy, and I'll save the trouble:
IT CAN'T.

So enough, OK?
I doubt there's anyone on this board who approves of what happened to either the Weavers or the Branch Davidians. So let's keep the black helicopter/conspiracy / militia / Alex Jones stuff where it belongs;
away from THIS forum! Please?
Thanks TG
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Old 05-22-2013, 08:11 PM   #11
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now look, dude. I did NOT say anything about dying, so twist off, got it? The fbi aint supposed to be playing SEAL, anyway. wth has rappeling out of choppers got to do with legit cop work, anyway? There is no reason at all for there to be ANY federal cops,doing any sort of enforcement. Crimes are committed in SOME state, let that state's cops handle them. Or let the military or the DC cops or the tribal cops handle it.. This idea that the feds are some special jurisdiction is the bunk, in the first place. it WAS policy, btw, for the crud that they pulled, and it WAS proven, but the punks at the top don't dare hand down the harshness that was deserved, since they knew that some of the guys in the lower ranks know "where the bodies are buried" about much worse things, committed by the "higher ups".

Last edited by whatsit; 05-22-2013 at 08:14 PM.
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Old 05-22-2013, 08:14 PM   #12
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now look, dude. I did NOT say anything about dying, so twist off, got it? The fbi aint supposed to be playing SEAL, anyway. wth has rappeling out of choppers got to do with legit cop work, anyway? There is no reason at all for there to be ANY federal cops,doing any sort of enforcement. Crimes are committed in SOME state, let that state's cops handle them. Or let the military or the DC cops or the tribal cops handle it.. This idea that the feds are some special jurisdiction is the bunk, in the first place.
Well, I'll excuse your lack of knowledge as ignorance. Since you've not been in L/E I mean. Tommy Gun made a great point...read his take on your TWO examples of poor judgment. Grow up
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Old 05-22-2013, 08:58 PM   #13
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The point is, good training is very dangerous.
Bad or "safe" training is useless AND almost always fatal....later.

There's a huge difference between careless training to seem tough, and realistic but dangerous training to make you ready for the real thing.
If you're doing training that is really useful, it's almost always risky and some times bad things happen in spite of all precautions.
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Old 05-22-2013, 11:06 PM   #14
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what legit leo training involves helicopter bs, hmm? it's that sort of stuff that gov't use against "rebels". and guys like you approve of it, until YOU are the one being attacked. no, the waco and Ruby ridge abuses of power were NOT adjudicated, either. the prosecutor REFUSED to charge those Nazi bastards.
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Old 05-23-2013, 05:08 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by whatsit View Post
what legit leo training involves helicopter bs, hmm? it's that sort of stuff that gov't use against "rebels". and guys like you approve of it, until YOU are the one being attacked. no, the waco and Ruby ridge abuses of power were NOT adjudicated, either. the prosecutor REFUSED to charge those Nazi bastards.
Wow, what century are you living in? Our SWAT teams trainied in repelling with other SWAT teams from Helicopters for urban assaults and recon. So once again, you are in error...and by the way, the Feds FBI & ATF & DOJ Swat team are used extensively by smaller agencies who do not have funding for their own. In many circumstances depending on threat level assessment and hostages.
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Old 05-23-2013, 06:13 AM   #16
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It wasn't "regular" FBI agents anyway, it was the HRT!

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Old 05-23-2013, 07:42 AM   #17
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what legit leo training involves helicopter bs, hmm? it's that sort of stuff that gov't use against "rebels". and guys like you approve of it, until YOU are the one being attacked. no, the waco and Ruby ridge abuses of power were NOT adjudicated, either. the prosecutor REFUSED to charge those Nazi bastards.


Really, there's no possible law enforcement application for this?
There's NEVER been ANY type of criminal activity that could be dealt with with this equipment -- in fact, required it?

Like anything else it is a sword that cuts both ways.
When we learned to split the atom we learned how to destroy a city with one bomb, but we learned how to provide power for it with one reactor.
A group of highly trained men can form themselves into a SWAT team and rescue hostages and capture thugs in very difficult tactical situations ... they can also form "einsatzgruppen" and be used to destroy undesirable people or political opponents.
It depends upon how they're used, which stems from the kind of men they are. I cannot believe any LEO today who has joined up to maintain safety and the good order of society would be willing to allow himself to become a member of any modern-day "einsatgruppen."
Yes, examples of bad LEO exist. We have the aforementioned examples of Ruby Ridge and Waco, where federal law enforcement efforts "went sideways." I could go into the reasons I believe they happened and IMHO the truth itself is damning enough of these two actions. I spent a lot of time back in the 1990s looking into these actions and debunking all the garbage myths & lies that popped up about them that today, I really don't want to rehash it all.
In any case the final conclusion I came to was that it is unhelpful to engage in conspiracy mongering. If you want to fear, better to fear the politicians who make the law -- which is what the police will be enfocing.
Become politically aware! Know what those policritters want to do! VOTE!
THAT, in a nutshell, is how to defend yourself.
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Old 05-23-2013, 08:39 AM   #18
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that's right, the cop mentality leads them to enforce ANY law, which is condemnation enough of their mindset. Remember, they COULD have chosen to be firemen. Firemen help people and are beloved. Cops have to make many people angry, it's part of the job. So what sort of person takes and keeps a cop job? The answer is most often "power seekers" Many a cop would rather rape his grandmother than give up his badge and gun.
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Old 05-23-2013, 08:41 AM   #19
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Well said TG! Exactly true....I wasn't able to enforce my opinion on the public, only the laws THEY passed...judges can't sentence people based upon conjecture, it's all based upon written law and prior decisions.
If you want a free country, then vote accordingly. Anyone who wants to change, detract from our amendment rights needs our scrutiny. That is, if you want to keep those rights. Be careful of government that only promotes growth in government and their agenda. I will add that any politician who wants to move further away from our biblical principles of this great nation and which it was founded, needs our NO vote.
If you want, desire, need to practice Islam, Buddhism or Satanism, move to a country that is rooted in that belief. People who have no fear or respect of a creator, have no fear of lifes consequences...ie:Stalin, Hitler etc...just my thoughts and opinions. I mean since I'm an American, I can say that freely. Thanks to the folks who died and served protecting that right.
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Old 05-23-2013, 08:43 AM   #20
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that's right, the cop mentality leads them to enforce ANY law, which is condemnation enough of their mindset. Remember, they COULD have chosen to be firemen. Firemen help people and are beloved. Cops have to make many people angry, it's part of the job. So what sort of person takes and keeps a cop job? The answer is most often "power seekers" Many a cop would rather rape his grandmother than give up his badge and gun.
Wow, are you on mommys computer again?. Does she know? Better stop and go ask her...
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