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Old 02-26-2008, 07:40 AM   #1
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LE issue/carry weapons

Back in the mid 80's when I was wearing the tin for the Niagara Falls PD the standard issue revolver was a S&W model 10 loaded with 158 gr. JSP. If you wanted to carry your own gun it had to be a revolver that fired the departmental ammo, have a no less than a 4" barrel and no longer than 6", and you had to be able to qualify on the dept range with it.

I quickly qualified with my 4" Python and carried that during my time there. I left the prior to the switch over to 9mm's.

Members of the Street Crime Unit worked plainclothes every other week and you could carry just about any gun you wanted while in plainclothes as long as you could qualify with it and it was a 9mm or bigger. Most guys carried .38 snubs or 9mm autos, I opted for an AMT .45 Longslide. I had to carry it in a crossdraw holster due to the length, but it always go everyones attention when I drew it!

How about it? What were you issued by the department and what did you carry?
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Old 02-26-2008, 10:00 AM   #2
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We aren't issued weapons, they are purchased by us.

I went through academy with Beretta Cougar 9mmDAO that I purchased cheap from a suburban copper.

When I finished probation I purchased a S&W 4586 from a friend which I carried for a few years. Then, from the same friend I purchased a SIG 220 in DAO. Thank god for my buddies view of the grass being always greener which has saved me a lot of money on guns.

When the SIG DAK in .45 came out I started carrying it. Although, it is a "special edition" made for my department.

Now I have the Springfield XD45 Tactical, waiting to qualify with it.

The PTB are mandating a 2 day course to carry any of the striker fired pistols. which is a pain as it is done on your own time and due to fact the class is limited to 12 participants.
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Old 02-27-2008, 04:55 AM   #3
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We also purchase our own weapons. We are only limited by what caliber we can carry (38spl, .357mag, 9mm, 40S&W, 45ACP). We used to be able to carry 10mm and .357sig, but the ammo was too expensive and the department said they would no longer buy qualification ammo for us. After the few who carried .357sig (no one ever had a 10mm), they just dropped it from the approved list. The guns do have to have the range master's approval. I carry a 1911. So do two others (All Springfields). Slightly over half carry Glocks, a few Sigs, and some assorted others. The department only supplies qualification ammo. We have to purchase our own duty ammo (and it has to be Gold Dots).
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Old 02-28-2008, 01:43 PM   #4
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to all:

when i was a young officer in 1966, the ONLY choices in my part of the USA for officers was a 4" or longer barrelled 38spl/357mag. it HAD to be a Colt or an S&W. (Rugers were not allowed!)

a FEW departments allowed carrying a Colt's .45 Auto, by "special exception", if you could shoot well enough to please the chief/sheriff/captain.

MOST officers bought their own, rather than carry "dept. issue", inasmuch as they all issued OLD/tired/worn-out Model 10s or pre-WWII M&Ps.

my first duty piece was a early Colt's Official Police & a used Don Hume holster & belt, which my MOTHER had to buy for me (i wasn't old enough to buy my own = a redhot 18YO !- liked to have NEVER "lived that down" either!).

the total price for my 1st rig was (believe it or not) about FORTY bucks, including a box of shells, from People's Hardware Co.

i saved every spare nickel for a YEAR to buy a new, 4" blue,Python & a basketweave, "Jordan River belt/holster" that cost about 250-300.oo, i think.

fwiw, i'm LONG retired from behind the badge & STILL think that a revolver is the BEST weapon for uniformed patrol. anything that 6 well-aimed shots won't handle is a job for a Remington 870 or a rifle.

if nothing else, KNOWING that you have 6 shots makes you concentrate/shoot better, rather than "spraying" as i see all too many LEOs today doing on the range.

just my opinion, as an old but NOT bold LEO.

be careful out there,sw
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Old 02-28-2008, 07:23 PM   #5
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SW your comment dovetails with a conversation I just had with my buddy who is in the academy. He wants to carry a S&W mdl 19 in a Border Patrol holster.
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Old 02-29-2008, 03:40 AM   #6
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We had to buy our own weapons off an approved list. At the time, that list was limited to revolvers , either S&W or Colt. You had to carry the dept. ammo which IIRC was Winchester .38spl.158 LSWCHP. practice ammo was .38 wadcutters. We had to fire 1000 rounds at the academy, 100 rounds a day for 10 days. I had bought a used Colt OP for $40. It constantly mis-fired, I returned it to the gunshop and the owner/gunsmith replaced the mainspring, than the firing pin in the hammer, than the recoil plate, still, misfired 2-6 DA, he refunded my money. I finally borrowed a friend's S&W Victory model 10. Rattled like a tin can with pebbles in it , but never missed a beat. Tried to buy that model 10, owner did'nt want to sell it. Sold my Ruger blackhawk(early model) and bought a 4" nickel Smith model 19 which I carried until the late 80's when we transitioned over to semi-auto's. By than the approved list included Sig, Beretta and Ruger. I bought a Smith 6450 (early 4506) and put meprolights on it. When I retired, I was still carrying that. Even though I started out with and carried a wheel gun for several years, I have completely changed over to semi-autos. I love my Sig P245.( W. German w/siglites)

Thirty years ago, you could get by with a Bill Jordan "fastdraw"holster with only a top strap over the hammer, now, weapon retention when you're struggling with a subject(s) is a priority and retention starts with a safariland SS3 or better.Anybody remember the clamshell?
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Old 02-29-2008, 07:22 AM   #7
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wagonman/all,

fwiw, i think you should carry whatever you can HIT with.

i was a range officer/master instructor for 2 decades & MOST officers cannot hit their point of aim at 25 yards consistently with their issued 9mm/357Sig/40S&W/.45ACP semi-auto pistol. (all too many officers today "qualify" with the "M-1 pencil".)

when i was teaching with Colt/S&W 38spl/357mag wheelguns, it was RARE that we of the academy staff could not qualify 90+% of recruits as expert, given the 2 weeks of range time.
the range committee managed to LEGITIMATELY qualify almost all of the rest, sometime before graduation.

fwiw, the Model 19/66 in a border patrol holster/belt is a FINE combination. what was good enough for Bill Jordan is good enough for ANYBODY. (fwiw, i PREFER the Model 65, as it has less things to "go wrong". i don't like "adjustable sighrts" in a COMBAT revolver.)

be careful out there,sw
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Old 02-29-2008, 07:26 AM   #8
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2110,

YEP i remember the "clamshell" but NOT fondly. imVho, the Jordan BP holster is better in every way.

keep it SIMPLE was/is my motto.

be careful out there,sw
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Old 02-29-2008, 12:04 PM   #9
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*
  • Ah, the infamous clamshell. SAPD officer Bill Madison. latter Deputy US Marshal, pulled a major blunder when clamshells were still authorized here. Bill forgot to check his gun before entering the lock-up. He walked down the row of cells next to the bars and one of the guests reached out, and to bother of their dismay, had a handful of S&W Combat Magnum. Clamshells were no longer authorized by the time Bill returned from his 3 day "vacation."
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Old 02-29-2008, 01:01 PM   #10
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Sergeant Major,

and people wonder WHY i despise the "clamshell" (and other "trick" holsters) & EMBRACE the Jordan River Holster (by Don Hume and other makers), for it's speed/simplicity/quality????

free dixie,sw
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Old 02-29-2008, 01:09 PM   #11
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IIRC, The clamshell came out of California, used by Motormen. (Motorcycle Police) They were swivel holsters operated by pushing a spring loaded button on the triggerguard. The holster would than spring open. My training officer had one, I had it for awhile, very,very fast to draw, but if you bumped the front of it hard enough, it would pop open. (not good) The other thing it would do was bang against the side of your leg when you were running after somebody.That was back in the 70's when alot of agencies were issuing crossdraw holsters. Real convienent to rest your elbow on, not fast to draw from or very secure.
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Old 03-01-2008, 05:06 PM   #12
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to all:

one of the most closely guarded secrets of MOST large police agencies is how many officers shot :
a. an innocent bystander,
b. another officer and/or
c. THEMSELVES
by accident since the departments started issuing semi-autos!

one of our nearby departments had FIVE "accidental discharges" reported (one wonders how many there really were?), the first week that they issued everyone a Glock!
(two of those "discharges" sent the officer himself to the hospital.)

that is yet another reason that issuing semi-autos to everyone is a MAJOR error of judgement on the part of "management". (had "the powers that be" asked someone who KNEW what would likely happen, a LOT of civilian & officers would NOT have been shot.)

free dixie,sw
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Old 03-03-2008, 04:44 AM   #13
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SW, I'm with you on the six shot revolver. I remember discussing tactics one afternoon with a couple of officers on my shift and they both were expounding the value of high capacity autos for surpressive fire. Surpressive fire?!? Evidently these boys had both spent way too much time watching "Lethal Weapon"!
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Old 03-03-2008, 07:57 AM   #14
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Pike Bishop, et.al.,

fwiw, "suppressive fire" is a MILITARY term that refers to the use of massive volumes of FULL-automatic fire from crew-served weapons like the .50 caliber M2 and/or the 7.62 caliber M60!!! SF is synomyous with "grazing fire".

one HOPES that they are NOT trying to use "suppressive fires" in MY neighborhood or in anyone else's in CONUS.

LEOs like those two boobs give us all a "bad name".

be careful out there,sw
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Old 03-12-2008, 10:49 AM   #15
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Re: LE issue/carry weapons

When I first came on board, we were issued the SIG 226 in 9mm, loaded with the Federal 147 grain Hydra-Shok (Our Sheriff was retired FBI).

When he passed away, the interim sheriff allowed us to carry whatever we could qualify with, restricted to quality semi-auto's in 9mm/.40S&W/.45ACP. I carried a Springfield Loaded Champion in .45ACP. We supplied all ammo/leather gear, unless we continued to carry the SIG.

Our new Sheriff assumed office and wanted everyone "uniform." He chose the Glock Model 31 in .357 SIG.

Off duty carry is strongly encouraged, but not required. Carry what you qualify with. I normally carry a Kimber Raptor II or a S&W 686 2 1/2 inch bbl off duty.
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Old 03-12-2008, 01:52 PM   #16
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Re: LE issue/carry weapons

Our choices are a Glock 22 or 23. NOTHING else.
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Old 03-12-2008, 06:50 PM   #17
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Re: LE issue/carry weapons

chili/irishcop,

i PITY both of you having to carry a "plastic glock" for a duty weapon. i wouldn't carry one of those things, if it was a gift.

fwiw, one day some years ago i was the chief range officer at Ft Meade, when some federal officers vcame out on our range & asked me if they could fire on the far end of our range. i said: YES.

about 15 minutes later, one of their number came over & asked if we had first aid supplies. i said: what happened??

the officer said: the slide came off one of the Glocks & hurt one of the guys. (we ended up sending the fellow to the ER & he had to have a number of stitches for his face. he liked to have lost an eye, i heard later.)

haven't fired (and WON'T) fire a Glock since.

furthermore, the FIRST WEEK that a nearby metropolitian PD issued Glocks, they had FIVE REPORTED "accidental discharges". (i wonder how many "accidents" were NOT reported???)
TWO of those "accidental discharges" sent the OFFICER, to whom the Glock was issued,to the hospital!!

be careful out there,sw
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Old 03-13-2008, 08:40 AM   #18
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Re: LE issue/carry weapons

Quote:
Originally Posted by stand watie
chili/irishcop,


fwiw, one day some years ago i was the chief range officer at Ft Meade, when some federal officers vcame out on our range & asked me if they could fire on the far end of our range. i said: YES.
When where you there? I used to go out there all the time in the mid 80's when I lived in Crofton. The range officers used to let me and my friends use the ranges when they where free that seemed to be most of the time.
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Old 03-13-2008, 04:54 PM   #19
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Re: LE issue/carry weapons

SW:

Thanks, brother. Glocks are NOT my handgun of choice. I admit that mine is reliable, and reasonably accurate. It appears to take on the elements well (You know, rain and humidity in a duty holster, exposure to sweat and skin oils when carried concealed), but I have small hands...well, they're wide enough to require size large gloves, but my fingers are short and stubby...and I can't comfortably hold the double stack Glock grip. I much prefer my 1911.

I'm very comfortable carrying my 1911 in condition one, but (and I know this sounds silly) I am firmly convinced that Glock is very unforgiving and will bite me in a second given even the smallest lapse in attention. I know that this applies to ALL firearms, but I just feel this is especially true of guns of the Glock design.
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Old 03-13-2008, 06:40 PM   #20
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Re: LE issue/carry weapons

Irish,

HAPPY ST Paddy's.

as i said, i PITY the poor officer who HAS to carry "the plastic !@#$%^&" .

WATCH out for flying slides. they tend to smack you between 'the running lights" IF/WHEN they fly off. OUCH is the word.

be careful out there,sw
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