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Old 05-18-2017, 07:21 PM   #1
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U.S. Army plots the future of the M-4 Carbine

Looks like the U.S. Army is looking forward quite a ways with this rifle.

Army Explores Future M4 Carbine Technologies - Warrior - Scout
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Old 05-19-2017, 02:11 AM   #2
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I didn't realize the Army owns almost a half-million of them. You're right...it sounds like the M16/M4 family is going to be around for the foreseeable future.
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:43 PM   #3
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Some years ago the military made clear that NO new rifle or caliber of ammo will be adopted *for general issue* until there's a breakthrough in rifle or ammo technology.

The current M16 series and 5.56mm caliber have proven satisfactory in combat use, and it's not worth the billions of dollars required for a new system unless a new system offers significant advantages.

So while people go ga-ga over reports of a new piston design or some sort of 6.5mm round, it isn't happening until there is a technology break through.
Every month or two there's a breathless story about a new rifle or ammo the military is "looking at".
The military is ALWAYS "looking at" new developments to see what it might have to offer.

A few years ago the internet was in a lather when it was reported that some special ops people were seen on an Army range shooting Desert Eagles.
Everyone thought they were going to adopt it.
No.
As usual they were simply looking to see if they might be useful. They weren't.
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Old 05-19-2017, 04:37 PM   #4
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Well the Marines seem to be forging ahead with the M27. They just put out an RFI for rifles and conversions.
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Old 05-21-2017, 02:12 PM   #5
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After reading the article, I'd like to see the actual technical documents. Especially since one of the improvements was "a single stage trigger". By any tech definition I'm aware of, the AR system comes that way now. I noticed a couple of other strange items. It may well be that the issue is PR flacks who don't know what they're writing about, but I'd still like to see the tech specs.

The article on the hyper velocity rounds for conventional artillery has some howlers. I'm really impressed that the "muzzle breech captures powder residues".

I'm fuzzy about the M27. Fuzzy memory is that the M27 appeared to be an attempt to bring back the hardware that would allow an aged concept that may have tactical validity. In dayes of yore, the ideal Marine rifle squad was made up of several 3 man fire teams consisting of one automatic rifleman and two riflemen. That would seem to mean that the Marines want some of the improved performance items of the M2A1, but in more limited numbers and costs.
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Old 05-22-2017, 04:17 AM   #6
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Well the Marines seem to be forging ahead with the M27. They just put out an RFI for rifles and conversions.
BREAKING: USMC Begins Process To Issue M27 IAR to Every Rifleman; Issues RFI To Industry - Soldier Systems Daily

The USMC actually purchased quite a few M4's, so it will be interesting to follow just what will happen. Unlike BIG GREEN, Uncle Sams Misguided Children still are required to qualify at 500 with a rifle. I'm just wondering if the USMC will lower their marksmanship standards to save on equipment costs by following the ARMIES lead?
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Old 05-22-2017, 07:30 AM   #7
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Unlike BIG GREEN, Uncle Sams Misguided Children still are required to qualify at 500 with a rifle. I'm just wondering if the USMC will lower their marksmanship standards...
Not likely, *IMO. USMC qualifies every swinging Richard as a combat rifleman where as my Army blunders and trains clerks, not riflemen.

Please note the RFI closed over 2 months back according to the "breaking news"
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Old 05-22-2017, 12:56 PM   #8
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I'm fuzzy about the M27. Fuzzy memory is that the M27 appeared to be an attempt to bring back the hardware that would allow an aged concept that may have tactical validity. In dayes of yore, the ideal Marine rifle squad was made up of several 3 man fire teams consisting of one automatic rifleman and two riflemen. That would seem to mean that the Marines want some of the improved performance items of the M2A1, but in more limited numbers and costs.
M27 is an H&K 416 with a heavier barrel to better support longer strings of full auto fire. Giving the ability of more individuals to provide full auto fire support if needed, or the M27 can be just another infantry rifle. As we know, the H&K 416 is an outstanding rifle.

I like the FN SCAR over the H&K 416, but from a cost perspective, it makes WAY more sense to upgrade M4's to 416's than it makes to completely switch rifles. That way most of your parts supply line remains the same, and 90% of armorer training remains the same. Training remains almost unchanged.

Meanwhile, the reliability of the M4 goes up quite a bit (not that it's unreliable currently by any means). But less maintenance would be welcome, and the 416 requires considerably less lubrication.

Personally, I don't see a down side to upgrading to the M27/416.
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Old 05-22-2017, 03:59 PM   #9
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The Army is already upgrading to the M4-A1, which has a heavier barrel and full-auto capability instead of the 3-shot burst feature.

This is in response to "things learned" from the Sand Wars, in which full-auto was preferred in actual combat calling for it.
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Old 05-26-2017, 04:20 PM   #10
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Yesterday I ran off some copies of courses of fire. I noticed the label on the several years old MEU-SOC course and noted it was headed M4A1 Qualification Course.

Gee, how far behind the times is the Army? Agree HK 416 is good alternative to M4. I played with but didn't shoot the SCAR a couple of years ago. Made for stock crawlers and the fold & collapse just didn't do anything for me. Hated the hand guard too.

Somewhat off topic, but I was watching Fox and noticed pix of a couple of British cops in the wake of their terrorist event toting shoulder weapons. Not only that, but I was trying to ID the make & model. Box magazine looked 5.56mm but the buttstock wasn't quite M4 and the fore end wasn't quite right. Anyone else note this and come up with anything?
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Old 05-26-2017, 08:16 PM   #11
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I've seen British cops with MP5's, very short AR's, and very short H&K G36's.
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Old 05-26-2017, 11:14 PM   #12
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"Very Short AR" like down around Mk 18 territory, Kevin?

10.3" for Mod 1, 10.5" Mod 0--I'm actually building an upper I call "Mk 18 Mod B"--"B" for "Bastard"--that combines the Mod 1 shorter barrel with the Mod 0 FSB and handguard as a PDW-pistol, so it might be interesting to see how the pros accessorize their shorties. (Project Gremlin was conceived as a discreet-carry bottom-of-briefcase gun, though, so its unique concealment needs may preclude a lot of traditional or common solutions.)
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Old 05-27-2017, 02:30 PM   #13
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To All,

Had "Wee Willie Klintoon" NOT sold all the machinery for making the M14 Rifle to the RoC (to keep the USA from, we wouldn't be in the mess that (imVho) our Armed Forces are in.
(It's my personal belief that the M16/M4 is perfectly acceptable for "close-in combat" between handgun/shotgun range & MBR range BUT completely INADEQUATE beyond 300M. = For example in the mountains of Afghanistan.)

It is also the opinion of this old (and retired for over a decade) MP that we should QUICKLY adopt a MBR as a "Limited Purchase Item".
(Imo, there are any number of perfectly suitable MBR in NATO service that can be "bought off the shelf". = PICK ONE & ORDER as many pieces as we NEED is my opinion.)

yours, sw
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Old 05-27-2017, 03:43 PM   #14
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you're confused- the m14 tooling was sold to TIAWAN, (SPELLING?) nOT republic of china-lots of people make that mistake- however , if you dig into it you will find the ROC- IE NORINCO m14s were made from REVERSE ENGINEERED drawings from m14s left by our boys and especially marvin in the field- ie the guns were captured and sent back to comm china- the Chinese then made up a bunch of m14 clones to be used to support the Filipino guerrillas-we had seconded the m14 usa made to the national army at this time to add confusion to the mess well, the coup unravelled and the Chinese were left with a shipment of m14s with no one to sell them to- this is where the American sportsman enters the scene- someone said they could sell them as HUNTING rifles, provided certain "features" were removed- ie the bayonet lug was removed, the scope mount hole was ground down and the fun switch innards were removed- if you wish to read the whole story, it's in a definitive book by lee emerson- long story short, there were some shady goings on by clint McKee to discredit the Chinese clones with soft bolts and such and if you tell a lie often enough somebody's going to believe it- I have one of these and the bolt measures as good as my gi ones- it's us "ferrin nationals " that buy the clones b/c they can't ship to the states-the m14clone made today is almost as good as the usgi
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Old 05-27-2017, 03:47 PM   #15
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I've always considered the Israelis to be about 4 steps ahead of the us in logistics, that's why I have a TAVOR
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Old 05-27-2017, 04:23 PM   #16
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If we're being picky about names, Taiwan is the Republic of China, Red China is the People's Republic of China.

I have no axe to grind on the M14/M1A thing, but: Several years ago, the NRA went to do a M1A-ish shoot-off. They had samples from SA, Norinco and Poly-Chrome (IIRC). Neither of the Chinese versions lasted 100 rounds. One of the outfits I knew that did M14/M1A builds finally refused to accept the Chinese versions.

The guns the Brit cops had didn't have the tell tales of the G36. Certainly weren't MP5s. Might have been M4s, HK 416s or maybe SCARs. Not familiar with the MP 7 or whatever they call it.

FN makes a neat semi-auto MBR, sort of a modernized FAL. Or at least they did, didn't see it in the latest catalog.
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Old 05-28-2017, 07:24 AM   #17
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If we're being picky about names, Taiwan is the Republic of China, Red China is the People's Republic of China.
I've pickier than that. When Chiang Kai-shek and his minions were driven from the Main Land by Moa, he stole the Republic of Formosa for his new Republic of China and the Free World looked the other way.

Last edited by csmkersh; 05-28-2017 at 02:27 PM.
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Old 05-29-2017, 02:23 PM   #18
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To All,

Had "Wee Willie Klintoon" NOT sold all the machinery for making the M14 Rifle to the RoC (to keep the USA from, we wouldn't be in the mess that (imVho) our Armed Forces are in.
(It's my personal belief that the M16/M4 is perfectly acceptable for "close-in combat" between handgun/shotgun range & MBR range BUT completely INADEQUATE beyond 300M. = For example in the mountains of Afghanistan.)

It is also the opinion of this old (and retired for over a decade) MP that we should QUICKLY adopt a MBR as a "Limited Purchase Item".
(Imo, there are any number of perfectly suitable MBR in NATO service that can be "bought off the shelf". = PICK ONE & ORDER as many pieces as we NEED is my opinion.)

yours, sw
The M14 rifle program was an absolute train wreck. There are very good reasons why it was the shortest serving rifle in US history.

I believe there are times when a .308 is the right tool for the job, but I'm glad the US military knows better than to EVER go back down that road. It's a very flawed design, and there are far better rifles. The new FN SCAR 17 in .308 would be a magnificent rifle to have in our inventory. SEALS and Delta have been using the SCAR 17 and they love them.
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Old 05-29-2017, 04:39 PM   #19
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t-star,

Pardon me for pointing out that you're are the one who is confused. =====> At the time that "Wee Willie" sold the M-14 equipment, Taiwan was officially The Republic of China & the Chicoms were then The People's Republic of China.
(Are you old enough to remember "the 2 China policy"??)

yours, sw
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Old 05-29-2017, 04:52 PM   #20
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GunGeek,

While I'm no "expert" on the M14, my former housemate WAS an acknowledged expert on that particular MBR & was one of the all-time MOST successful (read: DEADLY) snipers for the USMC during RVN. = Fred liked the M14, as prepared for sniping, VERY MUCH.
(When he returned to CONUS, Fred bought a group of "military surplus" TRW-made M14 parts, a fiberglass stock from "Fred's M14 Military Rifle Stocks", acquired a M-14 receiver "clone" in semi-auto & assembled his own sniper rifle.)
While I never met Fred when he served with the USMC in RVN, I have spent many a happy/worthwhile hour on the rifle range with him (when his health allowed him to go shooting) in VA & can attest personally that his "M14 clone" did very well out to 600M.
(Note: Fred is now suffering from congestive heart failure & is IN the hospital more than he is able to be "out & about" in 2017.)

You should also re-read my original post & note that I said that the USA should "look about" & find a MBR that they like & can "buy off the shelf" & procure as many as are NEEDED by our Armed Forces.

yours, sw

Last edited by stand watie; 05-29-2017 at 04:56 PM. Reason: typos
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