Gun Hub

Go Back   Gun Hub > Gun Hub Forum > Ammunition

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-26-2008, 07:56 AM   #1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 1,127
Elmer Keith Loads

Elmer had it right, a heavy lead bullet driven as hard as it can be is a fight stopper. I don't believe that modern industry has improved on the 'Punkin Ball' as a life saver.

Soooo, I admit that in my shtf bag I have his 45 ACP load for my 1911. 7 grains of Unique driving a 250 grain lead SWC will do the job and when you fire it on the range will get every ones attention. I use new Starline brass. One of the 80's issues of Handloader has this load.

Elmer, Skeeter, and some of the old greats had it right.
threefeathers is offline  
Old 04-26-2008, 08:41 AM   #2
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Elmer Keith Loads

I tinkered with this years ago in my 1911. I tried the Sierra 240g JHC and a Lasercast 250 LRN and somewhere around 8.0g of AA#5. I ended up going back to the 230 JHP and 8.5g of AA#5 (These loads were within the charge weights published by Accurate at that time.) The 250g load was interesting to shoot but not nearly as interesting or as impressive as my .45 Colt revolver loads and I could get the 230g JHP in bulk just as easily and the price difference wasn't that great.
 
Old 04-26-2008, 02:10 PM   #3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Northwest Arkansas
Posts: 4,995
Re: Elmer Keith Loads

For defense, I'll stick with JHP's as I think it's well established that they clearly out perform any solid. But where solids are conerned, the 250 SWC in the .45 ACP is about as good as it gets.
Kevin Gibson is offline  
Old 04-26-2008, 02:30 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
Charlie Petty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,603
Re: Elmer Keith Loads

Back before there were any practical hollowpoints for the .45 and before I concluded that any handload in a defense gun is not the best idea I loaded the Speer 45 Colt LSWC (were they 250 or 255?) with something like 7.0 Unique. Obviously we both read the same article... and they were impressive, but when the first Hydra-shok .45s came along in the 80s I switched and continue to use them to this day.
Charlie Petty is offline  
Old 04-26-2008, 03:14 PM   #5
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 1,127
Re: Elmer Keith Loads

I know and I read and respect Mas also. So I stoke my Colt with Taurus Hex and the new Corbon equiv. But I think the Keith load is still a manstopper and in a shtf situation I'll not hesitate to use it.
threefeathers is offline  
Old 04-26-2008, 04:30 PM   #6
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Elmer Keith Loads

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Petty
...when the first Hydra-shok .45s came along in the 80s I switched and continue to use them to this day.
I too have kept my home defense guns loaded with Hydrashoks from the day I bought a .45 and still do. The expansion to over eight tenths of an inch that Marshal and Sanow documented of a .45 ACP Hydrashok clinched it for me. Even though I have several boxes of the next generation Federal load (SXT?) I'll go with what I know works.

The only roles I can think of where a hard cast, FMJ or other solid is preferable to a JHP is when shooting steel plates to avoid getting splattered with jacket fragments and when you're loaded for bear where twelve to sixteen inches of penetration just isn't enough. All of the "Bear Loads" I saw offered for sale in when I was in Alaska were hard cast lead Keith style SWC.
 
Old 04-26-2008, 04:41 PM   #7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 1,127
Re: Elmer Keith Loads

Yeah, and I spend a lot of time outdoors in AZ. I've seen an angry bear. One had me trapped hanging off a ledge on the Black River near Springerville. Never again.
threefeathers is offline  
Old 04-26-2008, 07:49 PM   #8
Senior Member
 
Charlie Petty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,603
Re: Elmer Keith Loads

Mas was still wet behind the ears when that happened. The author was Dean Grennel.
Charlie Petty is offline  
Old 04-26-2008, 07:54 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 1,127
Re: Elmer Keith Loads

Holy Cow Charlie, I'm gonna have to dig out my old Handloader mags and read again. Anyway they're fun to shoot.
threefeathers is offline  
Old 05-07-2008, 07:02 AM   #10
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Huntsville AL
Posts: 186
Re: Elmer Keith Loads

Well I guess I am going to be the troll.

I loaded some 250 grain bullets in the 45 ACP, close to the Keith level, and decided they were way to hot for my pre War M1917. And shot way the heck high.

My 45 ACP revolvers are all prewar pistols, they need .454" bullets to avoid leading. I tried 6.0 grs Unique, and 6.5 grains Unique. In the lightweight M1917 pistol I found the recoil excessive, especially with the 6.5 grain load. A pre WWII pistol is not as heavy or as stout as the 1990s S&Ws, and I worried that too many of these loads would batter my pistols apart. Loads that are absolutely uncomfortable in my M1917 might not be as bad in a late model Smith. But I aint got one.

So here is the troll part, why do it? If you want to push a 250gr 45 caliber bullet 850 to 900 fps, why not get a nice 45 Long Colt? . Big bullet, low pressure, lots of momentum. Lots of happy customers since 1873.


M1917 S&W Brazilian Export 5" Barrel

250 LRN (.454) 6.0 grs Unique thrown, R-P AR cases, CCI300 primers
20-Jan-02 T = 44F
Ave Vel = 833
Std Dev = 25
ES 79.6
Low 789
High 869
N = 12
Heavy recoil, aimpt about 6" low at 25 yard. But very accurate



250 LRN (.454) 6.5 grs Unique thrown, R-P AR cases, CCI300 primers
20-Jan-02 T = 44F
Ave Vel = 888
Std Dev = 31
ES= 103.3
Low= 844
High= 947
N=12
heavy recoil, aimpt 5 OC below target, too heavy a load
SlamFire is offline  
Old 05-07-2008, 07:12 AM   #11
Moderator
 
Snake45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: "Close, but no donut!"
Posts: 12,416
Re: Elmer Keith Loads

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlamFire
So here is the troll part, why do it? If you want to push a 250gr 45 caliber bullet 850 to 900 fps, why not get a nice 45 Long Colt? . Big bullet, low pressure, lots of momentum. Lots of happy customers since 1873.
In a revolver, I agree--or better yet, a .44 Mag, which will shoot bucketsfull of these kinds of loads with complete safety.

250/900 in a 1911 is kind of intriguing, though.
Snake45 is offline  
Old 05-07-2008, 11:58 AM   #12
Senior Member
 
Daniel Watters's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 1,236
Re: Elmer Keith Loads

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snake45
250/900 in a 1911 is kind of intriguing, though.
Back when Fernando ran Triton, I kept hinting that that he needed to experiment with 250-260gr JHP in the .450 SMC. The Speer Gold Dot and Nosler Partition Gold in that weight range look like they'd have auto-friendly ogives. Of course, I'm the nut that once played with 300gr bullets in the .45 ACP. I gave up before I got anywhere close to making the then current Major Power Factor of 175. (At least I didn't play with factory length .40 S&W with 220gr bullets like some did during the same era.)
Daniel Watters is offline  
Old 05-07-2008, 03:30 PM   #13
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Huntsville AL
Posts: 186
Re: Elmer Keith Loads

I am such a dunder head, the first poster was talking about using 250 grain bullets in a M1911!! EEK!

Considering I had 230 grain bullets peen the frame out in a new Colt Combat Elite in 3000 rounds, why the heck would I want to fire something that would push the slide back faster?

The M1911 is basically a delayed blowback pistol. With locking lugs. OK, this is a oxymoron. However, if it were not for the locking lugs, you would have one heck of a heavy slide.

But the unlock, dwell and slide velocities are all based on a 230 grain bullet at 800 fps. When you start messing around with heavy bullets, it has got to cause trouble.

Someone is going to have to run a sort of lifetime test before I believe this is good for the pistol.

Again, why not a nice 45 LC?
SlamFire is offline  
Old 05-07-2008, 04:43 PM   #14
Senior Member
 
Charlie Petty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,603
Re: Elmer Keith Loads

Quote:
The M1911 is basically a delayed blowback pistol. With locking lugs
Not true at all. The tilting barrel of Mr. Browning's is properly called "locked breech". The slide and barrel recoil together for about 1/8" before the barrel drops down and separates from the slide. The recoiling mass is greatly increased this way.
By definition "blowback" relies on the weight of the slide and to a lesser degree the spring to keep the action closed until the bullet is gone and pressure drops.

I must confess limited familiarity with current Colt production but I've got several older guns or GI frames with no evidence of wear after many tens of thousands of rounds. If you've seen evidence of battering after a few thousand rounds of ball ammunition that's not good.
Charlie Petty is offline  
Old 05-08-2008, 03:27 PM   #15
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Huntsville AL
Posts: 186
Re: Elmer Keith Loads

Quote:
Not true at all.
I agree, in terms of definitions, technically I was all wet. However in both types, the slide weight and recoil springs are designed around the cartridge. In neither case does the designer want excessive slide speeds. Since equal and opposite forces still apply, and it is momemtum that is conserved, increasing the mass of the bullet should make a big impact in slide velocity. (Increasing pressure does too)

Quote:
I must confess limited familiarity with current Colt production but I've got several older guns or GI frames with no evidence of wear after many tens of thousands of rounds. If you've seen evidence of battering after a few thousand rounds of ball ammunition that's not good.
I learned to use shock buffs, but the frame still peened excessively. So I sent it off to Colt. They replaced the frame but did nothing to the slide and barrel. Now I am not a trained pistol smith, but to me, I thought I have some sort of mis alignment between the locking lugs, barrel link, and slide. The pistol was obviously unlocking too early in the pressure curve and the slide was moving too fast.

So I sent it off to Wilson Arms and had them install one of their barrels, and more work that added up to double the purchase price of the pistol. And it works wonderfully!

SlamFire is offline  
Old 05-08-2008, 04:26 PM   #16
Senior Member
 
Charlie Petty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,603
Re: Elmer Keith Loads

Right on. Slide velocity is a really big deal and so many of the things people do serve to screw up something that wasn't broke. When we insist on smaller/lighter there is always a price to pay.

I dislike +P loads vehemently and have shown that the increase in recoil far outweighs the relatively small increase invelocity with the sole exception of the .38 Special where the percentage gain in velocity is greater than the percentage increase in recoil. All the others have a greater increase in recoil than velocity.

Springs have a relatively small effect because the intial recoil impulse often exceeds their strength. Simply putting a heavier spring in a 1911 rarely solves problems and sometimes causes new ones. The worst example is putting a very heavy spring in which drives the slide shut so fast that it can actually crack the frame or slide stop pin.
Charlie Petty is offline  
Old 05-08-2008, 08:23 PM   #17
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 1,127
Re: Elmer Keith Loads

Boy did I learn that the hard way. I once split the frame of an Safari Arms 1911, but not with the big bullets. I was experimenting with 155 grain pills and pushing them as hard as I could.
threefeathers is offline  
Old 05-09-2008, 03:56 PM   #18
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Huntsville AL
Posts: 186
Re: Elmer Keith Loads

Quote:
Springs have a relatively small effect because the intial recoil impulse often exceeds their strength. Simply putting a heavier spring in a 1911 rarely solves problems and sometimes causes new ones.
Hey, I recommend getting the book "Technical Quotes, Small Arms Weapons Design" by John G. Rocha.

These were class handouts in a 1968 class.

How this helps this discussion is that Mr. Rocha derives calculations for the motion of gas pistons in a M14/M60 type mechanism.

At some point he has a formula with velocity equal to an algebraic string with a Spring Force parameter. And he says, "For all practical purposes Spring Force can be neglected".

I have not looked at pistols, but I will bet at some point, the spring force gets tossed out to simplify calculations.
SlamFire is offline  
Old 05-09-2008, 05:01 PM   #19
Senior Member
 
Charlie Petty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,603
Re: Elmer Keith Loads

My experience is almost entirely with pistols and while I have studied the math my conclusions are of a more practical nature. There is much ill informed debate about springs in 1911 pistols but building 100s of guns for both ball and wadcutter loads has never left me in doubt that a standard spring is all you need for either one as long as the gun is properly built.

One esoteric factor that is hard to measure is the intial recoil impulse and it has been suggested that this factor can cause the spring to at least partially collapse and have little or no moderating effect.

I have several 1911 types that have fired many tens of thousands of rounds with the original spring and never shown the need for replacement. Some of that surely goes out the window with hot or +P loads and even moreso when we look at mini or micro designs but springs are rarely a problem solving tool.
Charlie Petty is offline  
Reply

  Gun Hub > Gun Hub Forum > Ammunition


Search tags for this page
45 acp 250 grain keith
,
elmer keih on 45acp
,
elmer keith 45 acp loads
,
elmer keith 45 colt load
,
elmer keith 45 colt loads
,

elmer keith loads

,
elmer keith loads for the 45 colt
,

elmer keith quotes

,
loads of elmer keith for 38

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Just talked to Elmer Hawgtroop M14 1 06-15-2007 12:29 PM
Elmer Jim0437 M14 0 06-13-2006 08:00 PM
Where is Kodiak Keith Rogan Dean Speir Gun Talk 19 06-12-2006 07:35 AM
.41 magnum 220 grain Keith? Amy Ammunition 3 06-09-2006 03:02 PM
WTS - book - Sixguns by Keith flcracker Guns 0 11-17-2004 11:12 AM




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2002 - 2014 Gun Hub. All rights reserved.