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Old 07-18-2007, 09:25 AM   #1
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9mm +P+ Israeli Ball SMG Ammo

Has anybody used this. Any opinions? Too hot for non MG use?
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Old 07-18-2007, 11:17 AM   #2
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It's seriously high-pressure ammo. There is NO standard pressure for +P+. It's based solely on the performance requirements. Once met, the pressure can be measured. Weak actions will batter fairly quickly, and strong actions will suffer an accelerated rate of wear.

They really DO mean "Not for use in pistols".
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Old 07-18-2007, 02:32 PM   #3
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Which means that everybody will use it in them... just because it says not to do something on the label it's like issuing a challenge to see if they can get away with it...
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Old 07-18-2007, 05:58 PM   #4
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Oh, you mean the "They couldn't be talking about me" princible? also known as the "That won't happen to me" princible? We all do it from time to time. Like, who doesn't speed up when the light turns yellow? (well, when you're close and know you can make it...with a little effort, of course )

But then again, I've always taken warnings like that seriously. Not wanting to dislodge hot chunks of steel from my face has always been a pretty good motivator for me.
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Old 07-19-2007, 07:22 AM   #5
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Well, if we have people who can't tell which round to use in their pistols, i.e. "I need some ammo fo' my 9", I don' know WHICH 9", MY 9". It wouldn't be too much of a stretch for them to see 9mm, and try to stuff it into their .380!! Much less their Glock 19.

About ten years ago, another Postal Worker, knowing that I shot, asked me what was "the baddest 9mm that he could carry." Seems he had some "business in D.C." that required he be armed. A local shop had a bunch of Federal 115 gr. +P+ for sale, so I told him that, if his weapon would feed it, to carry that. A couple of days later, he was back. Told me that it wouldn't fit in his "9". So, after work, and off the property, he showed me his "9". It was an old Model 1955 Browning!! However, the caliber stamping DID say 9mmK. He wanted a 9, a cheap 9, and this, to him, was good to go.

Would that most people know enough about firearms that such a warning represented a challenge, and not a shrugged-shoulder Aggie Salute.
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Old 07-19-2007, 01:29 PM   #6
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Ah, the old 9mm Kurtz. my mom's side of the family has some Kurtz's thrown in there. Maybe one of em invented the .380acp. haha.

I think I'd be asking what the K stood for.
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Old 07-19-2007, 03:43 PM   #7
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I was in a local discount store and the guy in sporting goods asked me if I knew the difference between 9mm Luger and 9mm Parabellum. So I explained they were the same 9mm Parabellum just being a European name for that cartridge. He then answered the customer"s question at his counter. It made me wonder about both of them.
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Old 07-20-2007, 07:08 AM   #8
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We are enthusiasts. It doesn't require that to be a sales person. When you stop and think about it, we read, chat, and research forearms and ammunition almost daily. Can you imagine the feeling of being overwhelmed that a clerk has when his 21 years of experience is faced with one of us kibbitzing?

Just pass on the info, and remember that you've helped. The world of small-arms has a rich and varied history. That means that it's full of antiquated terms and measurements that have no reference in today's society.
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Old 07-20-2007, 08:02 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR
It's seriously high-pressure ammo. There is NO standard pressure for +P+.
Agreed.

Normal 9mmP has a MAP of 35,000 PSI. "+P" has a MAP of 38,500 PSI, both per SAAMI.

Some U.S. commercial 9mm "+P+" ammo I've seen carried a sticker on the box advising that pressure was in the 40,000 C.U.P. range. There's no exact conversion of PSI to CUP, but I would guess - and it's ONLY a guess! - that 40,000 CUP is probably somewhere around 43,000 - 45,000 PSI.

As to what foreign "+P+" ammo is actually generating . . . that's an open question. SAAMI standards aren't the only standards for pressure testing, and unless the manufacturer shares data, there's really no telling what you're getting.
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Old 07-20-2007, 08:46 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR
We are enthusiasts. It doesn't require that to be a sales person. When you stop and think about it, we read, chat, and research forearms and ammunition almost daily. Can you imagine the feeling of being overwhelmed that a clerk has when his 21 years of experience is faced with one of us kibbitzing?

Just pass on the info, and remember that you've helped. The world of small-arms has a rich and varied history. That means that it's full of antiquated terms and measurements that have no reference in today's society.
Good advice JR.
Looking through my accumulation of 9 MM I find them as:
9MM
9MM LUGER
9MM Parabellum
9X19
It's no wonder a young sales clerk might be confused. Don't get be started on 7.62 either. (Grin)
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Old 07-20-2007, 01:54 PM   #11
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Ihis was not a young sales clerk he has been working in that department foe at least fifteen years. I didn't make a big deal out of it. I just gave him the info. It still made me wonder.
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Old 07-23-2007, 08:22 PM   #12
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Re: 9mm +P+ Israeli Ball SMG Ammo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Smith
Has anybody used this. Any opinions? Too hot for non MG use?
Are you referring to the Israeli military surplus ammo that's usually headstamped with dates in the 1970's, or are you talking about the commercial IMI "carbine" loads that still turns up every now and then and are boxed in the brown "Uzi" crate style 50 rnd. box or the blue "Sampson" 50 rnd. box?

The military surplus ammo is indeed made for the Uzi SMG, as they have very hard, round primers. But just because this ammo is made for the SMG doesn't necessarily mean that it is "seriously high pressure" ammo. Depending on what pistol you may be trying to shoot this ammo in, yes, it may be unsafe. But any modern pistol that is rated for +P+ or NATO ammo (which GLOCKs are) should have no problems shooting this ammo, as long as the pistol can reliably set off the hard round SMG primers (my GLOCKs won't).

The commercial IMI carbine ammo is considered a "+P" loading by IMI (marked by either a dark blue/blackish or a maroon colored bullet tip and the 115JHP with case headstamped with "CARB"), and those guns rated for +P or higher pressured ammo should have no problems shooting this ammo. I've used many boxes of this ammo in the past through my G19 and my buddy's G17 back when IMI ammo was relatively inexpensive at the shooting ranges I used to visit many years ago.
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Old 07-24-2007, 05:56 AM   #13
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Merkavaboy,
Thanks for the info. I am talking about the actual military surplus. I plan to run it through my Uzi but I am somewhat concerned about battering. I realize that the ammo is designed for this use but normally when this ammo is used spare parts are common and easy to get hold of. While available, good spares are getting harder to find. In my mind this is a case of "If it's hard to fix don't break it". I'll probably pick up a couple K and see how they shoot. At worst I can break them down, dump the powder and primers, then use the cases. As prices go up this becomes more viable.

JR,
I didn't know about performance spec. vs pressure spec. for +P+ ammunitions. That explains a lot of the uncertainty I have seen in the literature concerning these loadings and their use in specific small arms.

Thanks for the information,

Mr.Smith
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Old 07-24-2007, 02:12 PM   #14
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What part of "not for handguns" is so hard? Just because you haven't broken something yet doesn't mean it is a good idea...especially if someone decides to sue you for bad advice.
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