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Old 09-07-2004, 06:31 PM   #1
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BRASS'O

Anbody ever hear of dumping brass'o in the tumbler when cleaning brass? My Brotherinlaw said that he use to do it on realy dirty brass.
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Old 09-07-2004, 07:11 PM   #2
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I'm very leary of introducing any liquid chemical to my casings - just never know what chemical reactions with the gunpowder and/or primers will occur. It only takes a tiny bit of oil, for instance, to cause your primer to fail.

Regular old crushed walnut shells will clean the very dirtiest brass with a little patience - inside and out.
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Old 09-07-2004, 07:23 PM   #3
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NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!

The ammonia in Brasso brings a severe risk of weaking the brass permanently and unpredictably. I have it on good authority that brass fittings used for gas cannisters are routinely protected from even incidental exposure to anything containing ammonia--even SCUBA tanks that run only 600 PSI or so.

Personally, I'm still waiting for metallurgical analysis of various pistol-round brass failure kB!s, for signs of ammonia embrittlement from yahoos adding Brasso or other stuff to their tumblers (still no comfort for the factory-ammo kB!s...).

Everybody's brother-in-law has done it for years without incident, and maybe you can get away with it in pistol calibers, but I won't do it. It's like saying so and so' brother-in-law drives drunk every weekend and has never been in a wreck. The truthful description must include the word: Yet.
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Old 09-08-2004, 07:06 AM   #4
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Brasso-No No!

Brasso does weaken brass. Do not use it. Just tumble your brass. Bon Ami works OK. I use it as well, don't use Comet or Ajax.
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Old 09-08-2004, 07:23 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grouch
NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!

The ammonia in Brasso brings a severe risk of weaking the brass permanently and unpredictably.
Says who? Your brother-in-law? Where is the proof?

Quote:
I have it on good authority that brass fittings used for gas cannisters are routinely protected from even incidental exposure to anything containing ammonia--even SCUBA tanks that run only 600 PSI or so.
Well, then I guess I won't reload any more SCUBA tank fittings after tumbling them with Brasso. What is that "good authority," by the way?

Quote:
Personally, I'm still waiting for metallurgical analysis of various pistol-round brass failure kB!s, for signs of ammonia embrittlement from yahoos adding Brasso or other stuff to their tumblers (still no comfort for the factory-ammo kB!s...).
Me too! But I have yet to see any. If you do run across any such evidence, please keep us informed.

Quote:
Everybody's brother-in-law has done it for years without incident, and maybe you can get away with it in pistol calibers, but I won't do it. It's like saying so and so' brother-in-law drives drunk every weekend and has never been in a wreck. The truthful description must include the word: Yet.
Well, I am not everybody's brother-in-law, and I don't play him on TV, but I have loaded brass cleaned in Brasso for rifles and pistols for years without incident.

I have also brushed my teeth every morning for years without incident. YET!! OMG what's going to happen nto my toothbrush?!?!

"Yet" does not necessarily apply to doing something for years without incident. Your ill-induced conclusion requires a premise you assume to be true without evidentiary support or argument.

As an aside, why is it that the anti-Brasso brigade is terrified of ammonia, as it is alleged to remove copper and thus weaken the brass, but they will use the "old-timer's secret no-tumble magic case cleaning formula" of soaking dirty brass in vinegar - an acid? The acid attacks the zinc in the brass. How is that possibly any better than attacking the copper? Brass ain't brass without the both of them. And, the copper is left as a red coating on the brass, which tumbles right off.

The anti-Brasso slander is an urban legend. I have yet to see one person relate a first-hand experience stating: I used Brasso, which weakened my brass cases, which led to premature case failure, and I can prove it."

Until then, it's an urban legend at best, and unsubstantiated opinion at worst.[/u][/i]

AND, btw, Bon Ami has ground rock in it.
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Old 09-08-2004, 02:49 PM   #6
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I also know a guy who uses Brasso in his tumbling media. I have another friend and a good one at that, who worked for the Navy as an explosive machinist who has a US patent on a bullet design. He had every reloaders wildest dream job and came up with a 50 cal using a 20mm case for the USMC. It looked like a giant 243, but spun the jackets off the 50 fmj bullet.

He said Brasso weakens brass......Dillon and Midway both sell a product (as does others) that helps clean the brass and has no ammonia. I've used the Dillion stuff in my media for years.........just a few dollors more. Every piece of advise Bill gave me has turned out to be true in one form or another.

I work in a field that sees what happens to brass propane tank fittings when exposed to anhydrous ammonia. They are corroded and weakened severely. I know Brasso has no where near the same amount of ammonia as anhydrous but why take a chance on something that seals 50,000 psi from your face?

You guys can use Brasso if you want, I won't, based on what Bill told me 20 years ago.
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Old 09-08-2004, 04:31 PM   #7
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Try:
http://www.sierrabullets.com/xring/i...action=Vol3no1
Selective quote, I offer with good faith belief it's within "fair use":
Another method of cleaning brass involves actually washing the brass in water and some form of cleaner. Mild soap works well, just be sure you use nothing that has an ammonia base to it that will attack the brass and weaken it.

And another:
http://www.usbr.gov/power/data/fist/fist5_3/vol5-3.pdf
(That's a safety manual for the US Bureau of Reclamation)
Selected quote:
g. To detect a chlorine gas leak, attach a cloth
to the end of a stick, soak it with ammonia, and
hold it close to the suspected area. A white
cloud of ammonia chloride will result if there is
a chlorine leak. Commercial 26 O Be ammonia
1 (FIST 5-4 2/92)
must be used; household ammonia is not strong
enough.
DO NOT GET ANY AMMONIA ON THE
BRASS.
h. Do not enter a chlorine contaminated area
without wearing a self-contained breathing apparatus,
which is available at all Bureau plants.
Canister-type chlorine masks do not protect
against chlorine concentration over 1 percent
when the oxygen concentration is below 16
percent.

They don't say why, but those of us who have become familiar with tank safety know...

Another selected quote from:
http://www.kansasag.org/kara/kara_re...uidelines1.pdf:
Only black steel pipe may be used to plumb an anhydrous ammonia storage installation. The pipe must be either ASME Schedule 80 if the joints are threaded or ASME Schedule 40 if the joints are welded. Any pipe joint compounds that are used must be ammonia resistant. All fittings must be made of material suitable for use with anhydrous
ammonia and designed for 250-pounds minimum working pressure. Galvanized, cast iron, zinc, copper and brass bushings, plugs or pipe fittings may not be used.

And:
http://www.uiowa.edu/~hpo/chemsafety/compgasguide.doc for:
Copper fittings or tubing, including bronze or brass ones containing more than 65% copper, must not be used on acetylene tanks – explosion may result. Acetylene also forms explosive compounds in contact with silver and mercury or their alloys.

Ammonia attacks brass and can react with mercury to form an explosive compound. Do not use mercury pressure gauges in ammonia systems!

Do not hang clothes or equipment over a compressed gas cylinder. Clothing can become saturated with a hazardous gas. If the gas is oxygen, clothing can catch fire and burn easily.

So, Mr. Skeptical, just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I'll grant you that *perhaps* the concentration of exposure is not enough in one or two tumblings to appreciably weaken the brass. But I think now that the burden of proof is now on you and the Brasso Boys to quantify your dosage rates and establish just how many times you can expose brass to a known weakening agent before you've exceeded some equivalent to a lifetime REM radiation dose...

Or you can commission a study for $50,000.00 (purchase of appropriate test guns included) and I'll design and conduct the experiments...with a blast shield! I suggest .45 ACP, .40 S&W, .357 Mag., 7.62 TOK, .223, 7.62x39, 7.62 NATO and some high-pressure Magnum rifle round as a decent sample universe to study.
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Old 09-08-2004, 05:21 PM   #8
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still nothing about scuba tanks


Quote:
So, Mr. Skeptical, just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Just because you think it will happen doesn't mean it will, either.

Quote:
I'll grant you that *perhaps* the concentration of exposure is not enough in one or two tumblings to appreciably weaken the brass.
I will assure you that many many tumblings and reloadings using Brasso have not caused any case failures in any of my reloads.

Quote:
But I think now that the burden of proof is now on you and the Brasso Boys to quantify your dosage rates and establish just how many times you can expose brass to a known weakening agent before you've exceeded some equivalent to a lifetime REM radiation dose...
Well, actually, since I and so many others of the Brasso Boys have been shooting without ammonia-based case failure, to the extent there is any burden of proof on us, we have met it. Now, you prove your assertion that Brasso weakens brass. The burden is on you to support your theory. My theory is Brasso does not weaken cases worse than other cleaning methods. My proof is my absence of case failures through a statistically valid sample.

Now how about that acid cleaning thing hbeing OK, but ammonia cleaning is not? The burden is on you to refute that argument.

Quote:
Or you can commission a study for $50,000.00 (purchase of appropriate test guns included) and I'll design and conduct the experiments...with a blast shield! I suggest .45 ACP, .40 S&W, .357 Mag., 7.62 TOK, .223, 7.62x39, 7.62 NATO and some high-pressure Magnum rifle round as a decent sample universe to study.
Sure, on their way. My brother-in-law knows a guy with all that stuff.
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Old 09-08-2004, 06:32 PM   #9
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LOL I love this site !
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Old 09-08-2004, 09:06 PM   #10
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Can't cite every textbook, safety manual or industry instruction guide I have ever read.

Sorry. Don't remember them all.
Quote:
My proof is my absence of case failures through a statistically valid sample.
Sorry, I can't even begin to evaluate your sample until I know more about how many cases, what relative pressure levels, how many tumbling cycles, and how much Brasso per pound of tumbling media and pound of brass in the tumbler.

BTW, my quotes were from just the first two pages of results in a Google search. Sorry that no SCUBA references left you so disappointed.

If you understand the differences between acids and bases, then we can discuss why vinegar is okay for brass cleaning. The chemistry involved is much different from the ammonia problem.
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Old 09-08-2004, 09:22 PM   #11
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Bloody hell. What's the board coming to? Interesting conflicting opinions though. Keep up the banter, it's more entertaining that way!

Going to add some blue Dillon stuff to my media. . .
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Old 09-08-2004, 09:24 PM   #12
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Hey, that was cool! I got a bit foul-mouthed there and used the word for Hades - the software changed it to HECK!

Little things please little minds I guess. No offense intended!
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Old 09-09-2004, 06:58 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grouch
Quote:
My proof is my absence of case failures through a statistically valid sample.
Sorry, I can't even begin to evaluate your sample until I know more about how many cases, what relative pressure levels, how many tumbling cycles, and how much Brasso per pound of tumbling media and pound of brass in the tumbler.
My sample is not yours to evaluate. I don't care to change your mind, that's your business. My goal is to dispel untruths for the benefit of others, as others have done for me. Still, in our argument, you first have to come up with something. I have done my part to refute the anti-Brasso argument. What have you done? Science isn't about my satisfying your doubts, but following an independent set of rules to arrive to conclusions in a fashion accepted by rational and logical people worldwide. Them's the rules - the scientific method.

You sidestep the issue. I have proof, you are still stuck with speculation. Until you provide proof - not speculation - I am "right" on this issue between the two of us. Them's the rules. I have a hypothesis, and performed the experiment to support it. You only have a hypothesis and hearsay. You can not claim differently.

Quote:
BTW, my quotes were from just the first two pages of results in a Google search. Sorry that no SCUBA references left you so disappointed.
You brought up the SCUBA reference, then left it dangling out there with no support. I don't tumble my SCUBA parts with Brasso, so I really don't care. I was just taking to you task a little.

Quote:
If you understand the differences between acids and bases, then we can discuss why vinegar is okay for brass cleaning. The chemistry involved is much different from the ammonia problem.
Oh, but I do understand. Acids are proton donors, bases are proton acceptors. Ammonia is a base, but it is not ammonia's porperties as a basic anhydride, or ammonium hydroxide's properties as a base that makes ammonia-containing brass polish effective. Nosireebob, it is something different, called complexing. Ligand bonding, not ionic bonding.

Ammonia dissolves copper through ligand bonded complexes. It is not an ionic process. But that does not make a difference. Whether your left nut was removed by sidecutters, or your right nut was removed by scissors, you're still one nut short of a full set. Brass without either zinc or copper just ain't brass.

Acid removes zinc. It does so because acids dissociate upon solution in water leaving a proton and a cation in concentrations generally determined by the pKa (the log of the concentration of the dissociated acid relative to the non-dissociated acid). However, when a metal that is more electropositive than the dissociated anion (in the case of vinegar, that is hydrogen) is present, then the cation will pair with that metal. If the resultant salt is soluble, the it stays in solution. If not, it does not. Zinc acetate is soluble, so soaking cartidge brass in vinegar will remove any zinc which is exposed to the acid. Copper, being less electropositive that hydrogen, is not dissolved appreciably. Thus, when you soak cartridge brass in vinegar, it is left with a red coating that tumbles or wipes off. That is the copper left over from the brass which was destroyed by the acid.

You can not, and thus will not, be able to find a credible scientific reference showing that ammonia ligand complexing is any more destructive to cartidge brass than acid soaking.

You will not.

But I will no doubt delight in your efforts to do so.

Mind you, the above was all from memory, don't make me bust out the CRC book or other BOUND, non-internet references.
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