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Old 08-06-2004, 05:33 AM   #1
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Powder recommendation

I burn IMR 4064 through my M21 with good success. The only draw back is weighing EVERY charge. I would like to use a powder that is safe/good results and offers excellent metering qualities so that I can start using my powder measure. Any suggestions?
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Old 08-06-2004, 07:11 AM   #2
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Hey, krazykarl!

I use Vitha vuori N140 with awesome results in my USGI M14. I load 42,5gn when I use a 146gn FMJ bullet, or 41,9 N140 when I use a 168HPBT bullet. It's clean and all in the middle of the table, so save loads. .

greets,

Roger
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Old 08-06-2004, 07:20 AM   #3
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Dutchman2,

I do have a 2lb can of N540 that I have never used. Would you have any advice on its use?

Thank you!
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Old 08-06-2004, 08:23 AM   #4
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Varget is a short grain extruded meters better than IMR4064 and my tests last year showed the same POI for nearly identical charges from my M1As with 168g bullets. I still weigh every charge though and have outstanding results with this powder. H4895 is another short grain extruded that gets excellent reviews here and across the street.

For ball powders: Some folks have reported good results with Olin 748.
I had good results with AA2520 and AA2460, the latter being better for surplus 142g-150g bullets. Both of these flow like water but I did not find the perfect load. I found AA2520 to be sensitive to loading density as well, watch for pressure signs well before you get to the max values listed in the manuals.
 
Old 08-06-2004, 03:04 PM   #5
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Anothter vote for h4895. I am trying to not weigh every charge.

My redding drops within +- .1 gr normally, so I have been weighing about every 3rd one.

Dave
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Old 08-07-2004, 02:00 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krazykarl
Dutchman2,

I do have a 2lb can of N540 that I have never used. Would you have any advice on its use?

Thank you!
This is what I found on the the site from Vitha;

N500 series

The N500 series of Vihtavuori propellants provide the utmost in performance for added velocity and range with heavy bullets. These High Energy powders are made from extruded powder grains which are enhanced with Nitro-glycerine, resulting in a denser, more energetic propellant. The Vihtavuori solution for driving heavy bullets to long range, loading with these powders will provide increases of muzzle velocity of up to 50 m/sec with outstanding accuracy and no pressure increase. The grains are coated with a new type of chemical which results in very progressive burning characteristics. Geometrically the powders in the N500 series are equal to the N100 series. Although these new powders have a higher energy content, they do not cause greater wear to the gun. This is because the surface of the powder has been treated with an agent designed to reduce barrel wear. N500 series powders work well at different temperatures, even better than the traditional N100 and N300 series. Temperature sensitivity naturally depends very much on the weapon and on the cartridge. The manufacturing technique employed permits a very high bulk density, which in turn makes it possible to use a bigger charge in a certain limited loading volume.

N540

A bit slower burning than N140. Superb long-range performance with heavy bullets in the .308 Winchester and in many 6.5 and 7mm cartridges with medium case capacity


And for reloading with some popular bullets in 7,62 NATO with N540;

-150 FB : min. 42,1 max. 48,9
-150HPBT : min. 41,8 max. 48,3
-155Palma : min. 37,9 max. 45,1
-168HPBT : min. 37,7 max. 44,1


I hope this helps you,

Greets,

Roger
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Old 08-07-2004, 09:11 AM   #7
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I would check some burn rate charts and see where N540 lands. If it is slower than N140 it might be inappropriate for an M14 pattern rifle.
 
Old 08-07-2004, 12:56 PM   #8
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Thank you Dutchman2!!
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Old 08-07-2004, 08:05 PM   #9
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Shooting @ 1K?

If you reload 168 SMK in your M1A or M14 does it keyhole @ 1K?
Because, I have seen bolt guns try 168's and they had trouble with the bullets hitting the target without a keyhole??
I didn't know if a M1A or M14 was different when it comes to shooting at 1K versus the bolt gun using the same load and bullet?

Thanks,
Jake
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Old 08-08-2004, 06:30 AM   #10
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powder recommedations

Hey KrazyKarl,
Dont know what bullet weight youre loading, but for 168gnBTHP,
I use 45 gns 0f WIN 748 (.308 military brass LC headstamp) gives me about 2650 fps MV. Win748 is a ball type propellant and meters well in my RCBS powder measure.
If you're looking for surplus military powder, WC846 ( also made by
Winchester) is the powder of choice of Lake City Arsenal I am told.
It is also a ball type powder and meters well, use loading data for
Hodgdon BLC2 powder . Starting load for 168gn bullets is 41 gn, max is 45gn, 2300 to 2625 fps.
If you load larger quantities, the WC846 is pretty economical, around $60 for an 8 pound jug.
Happy Loading!
Morguns1Cam.
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Old 08-08-2004, 10:50 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krazykarl
Dutchman2,
I do have a 2lb can of N540 that I have never used. Would you have any advice on its use?
I never tried the 500 series of Vitha Vuori, only the 100 series (it's cheaper). Vitha Vuori is avaible for decades here in Holland, and the last 10 year it's the number one powder here in Holland. It's a bit more expensive though, but it simply the best avaible. All seroius match shooter from pistol to highpower rifle are using Vitha vuori. Realy good stuff, I'm a big fan !

I load it in 4 calibers;

.223, 23,5 gr N135, 69gr bullet
.308, 41,9 gr N140, 168HPBT
.30-06, 52,0 gr N150 (or 50 gr N140) with a 150gr Flatbase
.30Carbine, 12,8 gr N110, 110 FMJ


This are the most accurate and best working loads in my rifles. The cases are clean, and ejected all in the same direction withou flat primer (indication from overpressure).
In the .308, I dublicated the M852 National Match cartridge by using 41,9 grain N140 with a 168HPBT. Like the M852 cartridge, this load gives me 2550 f/sec bullet velocity. (The M852 cartridge uses 42 grains of IMR4895)
I would say; Try 40,8 grains of N540 behind a 168HPBT. That exactly in the middle of the Vitha table, so you should be save.

Good luck, and let me know the results!
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Old 08-08-2004, 10:52 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchman2
I load it in 4 calibers;

.223, 23,5 gr N135, 69gr bullet
.308, 41,9 gr N140, 168HPBT
.30-06, 52,0 gr N150 (or 50 gr N140) with a 150gr Flatbase
.30Carbine, 12,8 gr N110, 110 FMJ
No, 5 calibers: Also .303 British;

174gr FMJ, 38,5 gr N140
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Old 08-09-2004, 05:22 AM   #13
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Dutchman2,

I would immediately start using N540 in my M21 if I believed that I would avoid excessive gas port pressure. I am not discounting your experience with N140 . Would there be any way of confirming that N540 is safe in the M14/M1a style rifle? If I do decide to use N540, what indicators are there for excessive port pressure and therefore "rifle abuse?"

Thank you!
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Old 08-09-2004, 07:51 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krazykarl
Dutchman2,

I would immediately start using N540 in my M21 if I believed that I would avoid excessive gas port pressure. I am not discounting your experience with N140 . Would there be any way of confirming that N540 is safe in the M14/M1a style rifle? If I do decide to use N540, what indicators are there for excessive port pressure and therefore "rifle abuse?"

Thank you!
I realy don't have any experiance with N540, but according to Vitha, its pretty simular to N140. In my opinion, N140 is THE BEST powder for 7,62X51 type cartridges. Some will say; "Hey, use N135", but I think that that powder is to fast, and N150 to slow for 7,62mm. N140 is the best deal, but N540 ? I also don't know any guy's that are using that type of powder. Why don't you ask Vitha? They gave me extra info about loads for .303br that where'nt wrote down in their manual:

http://www.vihtavuori.fi/askmore.html

BTW, a good load can be recognized by clean empty brass, with a normal (not flat) primer. Also a good indication is the way a case is ejected; the M14 will eject his cases approx 2 meters to the 2 O'clock position, and a M1 approx 3 meters to the 1 or 2 O 'clock position.


Good luck!

Please, let me know what they will tell you! I'm very curious!
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Old 08-09-2004, 08:17 AM   #15
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I just called Sierra and talked to one of the techs. I learned that N540 is safe to use in the M14/M1a with a burn rate slightly slower than IMR 4064 (my normal powder). I will go ahead and use it and see what happens! Hopefully it meters well though my redding measure. Thanks to all for advice (especially Dutchman2).

Take care,

Karl

PS I might even try it in my 510 wells express.
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Old 08-09-2004, 02:14 PM   #16
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Congratulations! Good luck with your new powder ! If you are goeing to use the N540 with a 168HPBT bullet, try to get it on 2550 feet/sec. With N140, I receive this velocity with 41,9 grains. If N540 is a bit slower, try 42,3 grains for example, but start with 41,9! You'll don't regret it that you are goeing to use that 2lb of Vitha powder. It a very accurate powder and, if you use the right measurements, very clean.
If you want extreme accuracy, measure each load (that's what I do), but right out of the powder measure device (don't know the English name for it , literal Dutch translation is "Powdermill").

Good luck and load save!

It was a pleasure to help you!

Greets,

Roger
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Old 08-10-2004, 05:16 AM   #17
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I agree with the 2550 fps. When I was working up loads with IMR4064 I noticed that group size dropped to moa or smaller when the muzzle velocity neared 2550 fps through my chronograph. I probably read it here a few months later that the US military learned that 168 gr bullets are happiest at 2550 fps. Barrel harmonics is an interesting topic

Karl
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Old 08-11-2004, 10:25 AM   #18
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powder

I have been useing WC846... meters like water, uses same data as BLC2. 44.5 gr to 45 gr gives outstanding accuracy with hornady 150 sst interlock.. a great deer and antelope round... Les
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Old 11-21-2008, 11:08 AM   #19
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Re: Powder recommendation

Four years gone.

Has anyone got more experience with Vihtavuori N540 powder? There was lack of VV N100 series in my gunstore, so I ended to get N540 home instead.

Now I have both M1A and M1 Garand. Would be nice to hear other opinions.
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Old 11-21-2008, 06:35 PM   #20
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Re: Powder recommendation

When working with the IMR 4064, I simply meter out about 1 to 1/2 of a grain shy and then trickle in the remainder. Often times, the long kernels of the 4064 can and will get chopped by my RCBS powder thrower. Obviously, when that happens, you end up with weight inconsistencies. The only remedy is to buy a trickler, measure light and trickle in the rest.

Honorable mention powders for .308 Win / 7.62 NATO


Alliant Reloder 15 Meters very smoothly - short cut powder profile - accurate at all temps.

Western Powders' "TAC" very clean and accurate shooting ball powder.

Both IMR and Hodgdon 4895

Win 748
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