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Old 01-16-2005, 04:25 AM   #1
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460 Rowland Americas most underrated auto cartridge

Because of its lack of notoriety the 460 Rowland still survives. If it was a better known cartridge the likes of Dianne Feinstein, Ted Kennedy and Charles Schummer would have had it banned under the Clinton Administration as being too deadly or having armor piercing potential. Possibly they would have said that its to easy to convert a 1911 to it. Its not the most powerful auto cartridge out there, although there are a host of forged 1911's that can easily handle it. If you take a 200 grain 45 super bullet at 1,200 fps you will arrive at 640 foot pounds of energy. The same exact energy applies to a 200 grain 10mm bullet traveling at 1,200 fps. Its amazing how these two different rounds offer the same amount of energy at at almost every bullet weight. The 460 Rowland however with a 200 grain 45 ACP bullet traveling at 1,495 fps gives 992 foot pounds of energy. Offering 55% more energy than a 45 super or a 10mm of the same bullet weight. A 185 grain 45 ACP bullet fired from a 460 rowland at 1550 fps offers 987 foot pounds of energy offering around 54% more energy. A 230 grain 45 ACP at 1349 offers 921 foot pounds of energy. There are several newer 165 grain 45 ACP bullets on the market and I may safely be able to approach the 1,100 to 1,200 foot pounds of energy area with this round. Some people I hear are already doing it. The round that your all looking for for has been around since 1999. These 460 Rowland velocities are with Accurate #7 and Hodgdon Longshot powder. Higher velocities (about 10% higher) can be achieved using Hodgdon 800X or Doubletap powder, yet with the same pressures as Acurrate #7 or Hodgdon Longshot. Plus it will fit into a 1911 without much conversion, and can easily be converted back again. I would have to say that because of its power factor it has a tendacy to intimidate the limp wristed.
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Old 01-16-2005, 06:18 AM   #2
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Damn!. IPAZ. never figured you for a slide rule type.

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Old 01-17-2005, 02:17 PM   #3
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Although I have never actually fondled one, the Dan Wesson 460 was a very interesting revolver as it could shoot .45ACP, .45 Detonics, .45 Super, .45 Win Mag and .460 Rowland. Kind of a .45 lovers dream come true.

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Old 01-17-2005, 03:13 PM   #4
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The cartridge may survive, but put a steady diet of it through a 1911 and the frame won't survive. Too much cartridge, IMHO, for the 1911 platform.
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Old 01-17-2005, 03:40 PM   #5
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Something that has puzzled me in the development of these cartridges is that I've never heard of an intermediate. Something a bit more powerful than .45ACP, e.g. 230g @1050fps. All of the designs I've seen push for magnum velocities. Anyone have thoughts on this?
 
Old 01-17-2005, 06:05 PM   #6
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kjl4570,

The .45 Super is exactly what you're looking for with 1100fps for a 230 grian bullet, it's hot, but not too hot.

For those who think they need magnum performance all the time, just roll the clock back 100 years ago when the .45 Colt was the biggest and baddest...It's just as efficient a killer today as it was then, and without magnum pressures.

The .45 Super will do most anything you need to do as long as you keep the ranges reasonable. For .45 Super, ramped barrels are recommended but not a must, however; one piece forged barrels are a must.

You can get .45 Super brass from Starline or make your own by cutting down .45 Win Mag brass.

It's a great round and it doesn't take a whole lot to make it work.

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Old 01-17-2005, 06:53 PM   #7
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djl4570, it's all basic caveman logic. Say that the .45 ACP's power is "1". Ok, so "1" is good. That means that "2" must be great! So they double the power of the .45 ACP and call it something else!

Caveman logic (substitue whatever you want for -----)
What's good?
-----!
What's better?
Two -----!
What's even better than that?
FIVE -----!
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Old 01-17-2005, 08:03 PM   #8
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djl4570 – when Triton first introduced factory loaded .45 Super (circa 1995), there were two reduced velocity loads. They were the 185 grain Tactical and the 200 grain Tactical. Forget the name, it was all marketing. The 185 grain was driven to 1,200 fps instead of 1,300 fps for the full house load. The 200 grain was driven to 1,150 fps instead of 1,200 fps. With the 230 grain, we offered a 230 grain JHP at 1,100 fps and a FMJ at the same velocity. By 1997 we added a 165 grain load at 1,400 fps and a 230 grain Tactical at 1,025 fps.

The full house loads were the most popular by a long stretch. No one was really interested in the reduced velocity stuff. When we made a special run for Naval Surface Warfare, the velocity went up some more. They ended up with a 185 grain FMJ/FP loaded to 1,340 fps for use in the HK Mk23.

GunGeek is right in that you can make your own .45 Super by trimming .45 Winchester Magnum brass. The only problem with that is you end up with a bulged case if you load a 230 grain bullet. You have to inside neck ream the cases to the desired bullet depth to prevent that from happening. On the brighter side, if you do, you’ll create a little shelf that will help keep the bullet from being driven too far back when it smacks the feed ramp.

The only drawback to the .45 Super is the recoil spring system. The original systems were in the neighborhood of 32 lbs between the two springs. The kits you could buy were reduced to 28 lbs and included a squared off firing pin stop. Even with the reduced rate, you are talking about a recoil spring system more robust than your typical 18 lb spring. Unless you have a very good crimp, there is a good chance of driving a bullet back into the case because of the force of the slide when it closes.

If you are not using a steady diet of .45 Super, you can get away with a 22 lb recoil spring. In fact, if I recall correctly, the .45 Supers that Springfield Armory were putting out in the late nineties only had the .45 Super rollmark and a 22 lb recoil spring to make them .45 Super capable.
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Old 01-17-2005, 08:28 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernando
If you are not using a steady diet of .45 Super, you can get away with a 22 lb recoil spring. In fact, if I recall correctly, the .45 Supers that Springfield Armory were putting out in the late nineties only had the .45 Super rollmark and a 22 lb recoil spring to make them .45 Super capable.
They also installed a set of "Shok-Buffs™" to "absorb" some of the recoil. If you remember correctly, after a converstation we had after I bought one of the Springfields, I called their customer support and inquired as to why they had ignored what currently (at that time) been used as setup for that caliber (spring wt) and went the cheap route with the lighter spring and shok-buffs™. The person could not give me any explaination at all.
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Old 01-17-2005, 08:34 PM   #10
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You're right, I forgot about the shok-buffs. According to one of their inhouse gunsmiths, the additional spring rate wasn't necessary.
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Old 01-18-2005, 02:49 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GunGeek
Although I have never actually fondled one, the Dan Wesson 460 was a very interesting revolver as it could shoot .45ACP, .45 Detonics, .45 Super, .45 Win Mag and .460 Rowland. Kind of a .45 lovers dream come true.

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I used to own an Dan Wesson 7460, and it was an excellent gun. Traded it off to flesh out my Pre-81 S&W revolver collection.

Did a review here:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.p ... adid=22780
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Old 01-18-2005, 05:21 AM   #12
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Fernando, when I got my .45 Super way back when the recoil spring was so stiff that I had to invite friends over to help me load it. I ended up switching to the spring for the comp gun (may have been 25 lbs.) and everything worked well with not visible battering.

I have always been leery of shok-buffs. With hot loads they lead a hard life and I've seen some that were shredded and causing function problems.
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Old 01-18-2005, 06:22 AM   #13
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Charlie – I think you had the one with the combined rate of 32 lbs. I agree, pulling that slide back was an experience, to say the least.

The shok-buffs were a real BAD idea with the .45 Super. They would either flatten out or as you noted, shred into pieces.

Other inherent problems with the .45 Super conversion that we observed included peening of the slide at the cutout for the slide stop. The other was the hammer falling to half cock. Granted, the falling to half cock would only occur when letting the slide slam shut on an empty chamber. While that is not a good practice, I’ve watched it happen on many occasions when an unsuspecting person handling an empty .45 Super would try to release the slide while holding it and the extra strong recoil spring would catch the person off-guard and the slide would slam home, followed by the hammer dropping.

The last .45 Super configuration that I worked on consisted of a 22 lb recoil spring and a shortened version of the full length .45 Super (Detonics) guide rod. It was shortened to the length of a stock recoil spring guide. The hollow guide rod plug was replaced with a stock recoil plug. That recoil spring configuration, coupled with a squared off firing pin stop, worked fine with hundreds of rounds of .45 Super and 450 SMC.
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Old 01-18-2005, 01:41 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Fernando Coelho
a 230 grain Tactical at 1,025 fps.
That would float my boat. As for making cases out of .45 Win Mag. I would start with .308 Win, I've got buckets of it. It's too bad that this didn't catch on. Any idea what kind of operating pressure this load produced?
 
Old 01-18-2005, 01:58 PM   #15
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You don't want to trim .308 brass. It is very tedious and then you would have to inside neck ream each case. That is even worse. If you have that much time on your hands, you're not spending enough time on the forum.

Another factor is pressure. You will get way too much pressure than if you used .45 Super or .45 Win Mag brass.

With .45 Super brass, the tactical loads were around 27,000 PSI.
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Old 01-26-2005, 12:36 PM   #16
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Why Are We Addicted To Hotloads Anyhoo?

I keep asking myself over and over yet when the chrono shows 1900fps with a 135gn 10mm.....ahhhhhh!
Fernando and all, I've had great results using the EGW squared firing pin stop plate along with a 25Lb mainspring and 22Lb recoil spring and the Red Buff .2 buff in both my 45 Super and 10mm extreme loads.
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